"Playing Cheap"

[SkitzoSmurf]

After my first regional this year, I am kind of dissapointed with the way that some teams are playing. They either get up the ramp during autonomous or immediately after, and then hang. Serving no purpose other than an extra fifty points. I am really confused with the teams that have both alliance partners hang at once. It's not even a competition after that. The two robots are hogging the bar, they have a hundred points, and maybe twenty from human players, and the apposing alliance is struggling to get all the blue balls they can in the goals, and capping them with a doubler. Say they have ten balls, cap it with a doubler, they will only have a hundred points, while the double hanging alliance needs just one blue ball to defeat them by five lousy points. Do you people see what I mean? These teams are not raising the bar, they are lowering it. And it REALLY confuses me when these teams that serve one purpose, (hanging), recieve all the awards.
<~~~~~~ CONFUSED!!!
P.S. I am not trying to insult anyone

[MOEmaniac]

how is it playing cheap when that is their stradigy. and plus it takes a lot more work and engineering to make a hangin robot than it does to make a box bot because a box bot is all that is needed to push the little 5pt balls

[Tom Bottiglieri]

i undertsnad what you are saying, and i also do not like when a team does only one thing. BUT.... that was their strategy. They probably sat down and ocnsidered all the posibilities for this game, and chose the one they thought would give them the maximum to win. I can think of one team who does this excelently. Team 237 onyl does 1 thing this year. They get on the bar and defend it. They lost onyl 1 match at the NJ regional, due to another team blocking them to get to the bar. If you have not realized, in FIRST or in any other type of engineering, more fancy and complex does not always mean better. I have noitced every year that most succesfull teams are the ones that go out and do one thing during the game, but do it consistently. This thing they do may consist of one arm or add on, but that is the only extra thing on their bot that gets time put into and developed.

[Matt Adams]

A strategy is a strategy. Two robots quickly hanging is far from unbeatable.

Moreover... I think that the small balls will be much more deciding than hanging when the big boys and girls come out to play at some of regionals with older teams and or (historically) sound robots. I don't think the first weekend will be representative of the whole season.

Getting 10 balls and capping in 1:45 should not be a problem for a well made robot with a ball hearder and an arm. It will be a significant problem for a team that trys to simply push them around. I heard the someone compare it to "hearding cats" - I'd have to agree!

It's definitely a rock-paper-scissors sort of competition. Hanging robots that require a lot of room and time to hang will have little to no choice but to do so at the start of the round. Those that can hang from on the floor or while not needing to be on the top lip will be at a great advantage.

Matt

[Alavinus]

It is better for a team to do one thing and do it very well, rather then try to do fifty things all poorly. FIRST is often a game of compromises. You must make tradeoffs when you design the robot.

Some teams choose to hang and they did. While most of the teams that I saw at VCU played defense before they hung, after seeing some of the crazy robot designs posted here (The shimmy, anyone?) I think some teams would like to get to the bar before it becomes unavailable

It is not a cheap strategy by any means and as to them receving awards, think about it this way: They set out to build a robot that hangs. It hangs well. Mission accomplished. Let the accolades rain down.

[ultramrw21]

I saw many teams that did just that. Its best to have a robot that can hang from the side of the platform. That way you can score some goals and also have enough time and room on the bar to hang. This strategy works great when other robots are blocking the base.

[Andy Grady]

I've said it a million times before, and I'll say it a million times after this...

For every strategy, there is a counter strategy. All the hangers be forewarned, because teams will catch on. The double hang strategy is not cheap....effective, but not cheap.

Good Luck,
Andy Grady

[ngreen]

Originally Posted by SkitzoSmurf

After my first regional this year, I am kind of dissapointed with the way that some teams are playing. They either get up the ramp during autonomous or immediately after, and then hang. Serving no purpose other than an extra fifty points. I am really confused with the teams that have both alliance partners hang at once. It's not even a competition after that. The two robots are hogging the bar, they have a hundred points, and maybe twenty from human players, and the apposing alliance is struggling to get all the blue balls they can in the goals, and capping them with a doubler. Say they have ten balls, cap it with a doubler, they will only have a hundred points, while the double hanging alliance needs just one blue ball to defeat them by five lousy points. Do you people see what I mean? These teams are not raising the bar, they are lowering it. And it REALLY confuses me when these teams that serve one purpose, (hanging), recieve all the awards.
<~~~~~~ CONFUSED!!!
P.S. I am not trying to insult anyone

You did watch the Killer Bees, didn't you?

It all depend on how you design, but a small bot ball that if well designed can easily outscore a hanging bot.

18 5 pt balls in the stationary goal uncapped is almost equal to two hanging robots. So its not like FIRST set an arbitrary number. They put one where a hanging bot could do well but a good small ball bot would do better. You get what you design. Most small ball bots have the problem of beating hanging bots because they are designed inefficiently for what they are supposed to do while the hanging bots are more efficient. They can only hang once and they are hanging once. It's like a quarterback passing efficiency rating, 1 attempt, one touchdown. Robot's not designed well with the small balls may be more in the range of 4-5 attempts per completion and then you get the touchdown depending on if the HP makes the shot. Not quite as efficient. Small bot robots are like a west coast offense though so they have a lot more attempts and can complete a lot more passes for more overall points. You just want to have that high efficiency to go with it.

Okay. I'm done.

[Paul Copioli]

Will every alliance that we play against please, please hang right away?

This strategy, while getting 100 points (maybe 130) will not be enough against teams that do not count on hanging at all.

Go hang and leave the opposition free to roam the carpet .. I can think of many strategies that will beat it.

To answer directly .. NO. I do not think it is cheap!

[MOEmaniac]

i was at the same regional as ToMMan b182 and team 237 hung from the bar and thats all and a solid 50 points 99.99% of the time is a huge advantage. plus 237 did more than just hangin and i know ToMMan b182 knows wat im talking about. take for instance my teams 2001 robot "Lil' MOE" it was a simple bot that didnt try to do everything. and look what the became of "Lil' MOE" National Champion i dont mean to come off as cocky but a bot that does one thing and does that one thing extraordinarily well is almost always a solid plan and there is less things that can go wrong (most of the time)

[MOEmaniac]

i mean no offence to team 237 but without team 303 they wouldnt have been Champs of the NJ regional because 303 was a great, no not great, excellent small ball and large ball handeler

[KenWittlief]

I would love to see all our opponents take the strategy, both bots hanging right off the bat and getting 100- 130 points if their HP is perfect

some of us figured out the most points one bot can get is by collecting balls and capping the goals, and we have built our machines accordingly

we are hoping to be allied with other teams that also collect and cap - 24 small balls in capped goals is 240 point - hanging not required

so those 100 to 130 point loosing scores will rack up our qualification points very nicely! :^)

You see the power
you feel the thunder
When Blue Lightning strikes
you run for cover!

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

[tenfour]

What you may mean is that its not as exciting. But after working on our hanger (major learning step for our team), it seems unfair to call us cheap. After all, would we be less cheap if we only had the hanger?

Now gameplay is another thing.... I don't really like the teams that lack the bravery to do anything. We will be hanging, but we will also do a real crackerjack driving job that will make people excited about the game!

[MOEmaniac]

im not tryin to dis ken but how often do u get 24 balls in a stationary goal and cap it?

[Ted Boucher]

Team 237 reilded highly on our alleince partners though all the elmination rounds. They would bascicly be the tie breaker that would win the match for us. It goes to show you that without your alleince partners you will not succeed. Thank you teams 303 and 56.