"Playing Cheap"

[Greg Perkins]

our bots main purpose was to hang, thats it...we had a hugely consistent autonomous, and that was it. we then got the idea to put on ball wings, but we ran into a huge problem when whe tried to herd them into the corral...we always got inside the players station. so to avoid the problem of getting d'qed we took off the wings, and went straight for the bar after... we also had one of the best drives at BAE, so sometimes we would wait and block the ramp, in one match, we went against a team who collected all the small balls in auto., and pushed them out of the way, so only 6-7 balls accumulated into their hopper, then hung. we hung 7 out of our 8 matches.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by MOEmaniac

im not tryin to dis ken but how often do u get 24 balls in a stationary goal and cap it?

fair question!
there are two goals on the field, and if our alliance can also collect and/or cap the goals, and our opponents when and hung themselves, there would be nothing to stop us from filling both of them - even get some extra ball from the other side if we have to.

[Paul Copioli]

Steve S.,

There is still a moveable goal ready to get an easy 60 points without the stationary goal. The best part is that you can protect it while you drive around.

[MOEmaniac]

but in order for u to get all of those balls and points u have to have a great human player but still that is a lot of balls to collect deliver and shoot (not to mention make them all) im not sayin its unreasonable because its not and im sure it will happen sometimes but wat do u think the chances are of it actually happening

[Tom Bottiglieri]

if you are going to ask that, you might as well ask what are the chances of a huge bird swooping down from the sky and stealing your battery... Anything is possible with practice.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by MOEmaniac

but in order for u to get all of those balls and points u have to have a great human player but still that is a lot of balls to collect deliver and shoot (not to mention make them all) im not sayin its unreasonable because its not and im sure it will happen sometimes but wat do u think the chances are of it actually happening

The chances are excellent. Our HP got to be on the Ateam by consistantly hitting 17 or more out of 20

and if he misses a few, there will be 18 balls lying around on the other side of the field too.

when one team hangs both bot right off the bat, the other team is left with a 'target rich environment' :^)

24 balls between two bots and two HPs is 12 each

145 / 12 = 12 seconds to shoot or gather each ball - the bots keep dumping 5 or 6 balls into the corral, the HP keeps shooting - 12 seconds per ball is all the time in the world

esp when your bot gathers balls like a carpet sweeping picking up popcorn!

[Lil' Lavery]

You did watch the Killer Bees, didn't you?

Team 33 dominated with-out ever once hanging from the bar. Other teams, like 346 or 422, could hang from the ground, making it almost immposible for a robot on the bar to stop them. And note the match where all 4 robots got on the bar(yay, my team did something memorable!), teams where trying to stop the other teams from getting on the bar, but they failed, and they got on the bar too. Or the match where 388 capped 33 stationary goal, a WHOLE lotta points where scored then. An alliance in Portland scored 170 with NO robots on the bar, just both goals filled and capped. All stategies can be beaten. Team 33 ball collector could be beaten by forcing them to have to spend most of their time dodging you and moving mobile goals, that is, if you can get a robot on the bar also and a few balls in the goals.

[Trinora]

Originally Posted by MOEmaniac

i mean no offence to team 237 but without team 303 they wouldnt have been Champs of the NJ regional because 303 was a great, no not great, excellent small ball and large ball handeler

Ted said it before, but we KNEW our alliance partners saved us. It's not offensive, it's true. And thank god.

When we were planning our bot, as I am sure all of you did, we talked about what we would do. And We decided we could handle doing one thing this year, and doing it well. Hanging was that single option. It's not cheap, just as it isn't cheap to have a bot that catches balls in autonomous or one that uses goals to block chutes.

Rest assured, our strategies will change and we do love effective alliance partners. And I applaud teams that make our lives just a little bit more difficult. ^.^

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by MOEmaniac

i mean no offence to team 237 but without team 303 they wouldnt have been Champs of the NJ regional because 303 was a great, no not great, excellent small ball and large ball handeler

No offense taken!! Team 237 thanks 303 and 56 for their awesome skills in doing what they do. That is why we chose them, because we know we can't do it all, and never wanted to. We chose to design a robot that could do one thing great, and that's it.

Well, One thing great, and maybe a couple other things ok.

We have learned in our 6 years being involved in FIRST that there is a system of checks and balances. Some years we have been greedy and chose to try and do everything, re:2001. But in the end, we were unsucessfull in all approaches and never had the tskills to even be picked in the finals since we didn't qualify high enough.

The bottom line is: K.I.S.S.

[Kevin Sevcik]

I'll toss in my 2 cents and say that I don't think that any robots or strategies are invulnerable this year. Ken has already pointed out that 2 robots hanging immediately will give free reign to the small ballers and cappers. Simillarly, one could assume that small ballers and cappers are not going to be good at hanging from the bar. Thus, efficient, quick hanging robots should be able to spend a large portion of the game defending players stations and keeping such teams from delivering their small or large balls. The balling teams would either then have to block the hangers from getting to the bar, or get to the bar themselves, etc, etc, etc. The strategies and counter strategies can go on for a very long time. The only invincible robot would really be one that can do everything and do everything very well, but that's the case every year and if a team can build that bot in 6 weeks, kudos to them.
I'll say the best strategy to win this year will be good scouting, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and those of your enemy, and knowing how to capitalize on said strengths and weaknesses.

[Crop-Circles]

If a team can only get 130 points max, you can win with 14 capped balls or 27 non-capped. You don't need 240 points, only 135. That's not including the potential of 10 point balls.

Besides, wouldn't it be cheaper for a team to just make drivetrain and push ball with a plow? You could collect enough balls to be somewhat competitive and it wouldn't be as difficult to build. (Note: I'm not saying it would be "cheap," I'm just trying to make a point.)

The strategy does not break any of the rules, nor does it contradict the spirit of the rules. I don't see how it is cheap when the teams still had to put work into their robot. It doesn't make for the most exciting matches, but if you ask me, this is not a new problem. There were a lot of matches last year that were basically decided in autonomous mode. It doesn't make the strategy cheap, although you could argue that there may be something wrong with the game.

[MOEmaniac]

even though 237's robot mainly hangs and hangs with amazing skill, it makes for one of the most exciting and nail bitting matches u will ever have. i know from experience lol but i enjoyed every bit of it

[David66]

i will not post here...i will not post here....well...okay, yes I will

So, two teams want to hang at the beginning of the match? fantastic, makes me very happy. my alliance partner and i will now be herding EVERY ball to our human players for about 1:20....and then capping both goals....lol, don't sweat it, hanging robots are NOT the end of the world. Ask Auburn Hills (Team 33). They collect balls. that's it. Oh, and they won virginia with it. I'd say hanging is easily negatable.

okay....i think im done....

[Tom Bottiglieri]

i think this thread was not aimed to shoot down different people's robots or strategies, just to see what people thought about a certain strategy of hanging from the begining of the match.

[Elgin Clock]

I think the results of the poll answers the question very nicely.
Thank you for making it a poll!!