"Playing Cheap"

[MOEmaniac]

yup i think the poll explains the majority of people point of view

[Greg Perkins]

just a question for all you disbelievers...

a team who in autonomous, drive under the players station, and collects alll the balls in one shot...now if you were a hanger bot, wouldnt you think this was a cheap strategy? i mean its all in due measure...noone can have a happy mindset.

[KenWittlief]

maybe the problem is that teams who are able to hang very well, and do it consistantly

well.....

they just make it look so EASY! :^)

when you see a bot trying and trying and trying to grab the bar and they finally made it, you think, wow that driver really struggled to make it happen

but if a bot hangs itself in auton mode.... then how hard can it be, right?

[ShadowKnight]

I'd just give props to the programmer...but you know...

Our bot can hang. Hanging is something that we will be doing better than say ball grabbing and such. We designed our robot with that in mind...yes, we can do other things, but hanging is our strong point and if we do better just going for the hang at the beginning, than that's what we'll be doing...it comes down to strategy. In reality...any bot that hangs at the start is actually more at a disadvantage if you can heard well with ball and can cap and have an excellent human player. ... 18 balls + 3 balls + 3 balls = 24 balls. 24 balls * 5 =120 points. 120 points * 2 for the multiplier ball is 240 points...a bot that could shoot well, cap, and catch all the balls and feed them to the hp could woop on a team that hanged...

[Trinora]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

just a question for all you disbelievers...

a team who in autonomous, drive under the players station, and collects alll the balls in one shot...now if you were a hanger bot, wouldnt you think this was a cheap strategy? i mean its all in due measure...noone can have a happy mindset.

I love these robots, these gumball mchine auton catchers. Please let every match be with and agaisnt them. They aren't cheap, but a wonderful use of strategy. I also think they look awesome..

[JVN]

There is no such thing as a cheap strategy.
Just people too foolish to adapt.

"whine whine whine... you won't let us play the game the way we think it should be played... whine whine whine"

Play the game the way it's being played, not the way you think it should be played.

When in rome... beat them at their own game.
Or something like that, I was never good at proverbs.

JVN

[MOEmaniac]

if every team had the same stratagy then the game would be boring and FIRST isnt about being boring its about havin fun and learnin. i agree that no stratagy is ever cheap.

[OneAngryDaisy]

What truly amazes me is the low volume of teams who can hang from the floor- those steps are extremely dangerous, I know when my team was testing our treads we flipped every time, yet so many have designed elaborate drivetrains to go up those steps.. I somewhat wish we had a 'cool' drivetrain also, but it sure is a luxury to not have to worry about those steps. Did most of you think about this option instead of going up the steps?



*This was my opinion only and does not represent team 341*

[SkitzoSmurf]

Originally Posted by tenfour

What you may mean is that its not as exciting. But after working on our hanger (major learning step for our team), it seems unfair to call us cheap. After all, would we be less cheap if we only had the hanger?

Now gameplay is another thing.... I don't really like the teams that lack the bravery to do anything. We will be hanging, but we will also do a real crackerjack driving job that will make people excited about the game!

I think you put what I meant to say better. I did use quotations in order to denote that I wasn't trying to insult or accuse anyone. I'm glad everyone did take this thread so well, and no screaming or yelling went on. BRAVO!!!

Yes, in my opinion hanging is less exciting. I'd much rather see a robot in action for a minute and a half, than just see them hanging for that period of time. I think it dulls down the game somewhat, but if that is your strategy, so be it. GOOD LUCK!!!

During our brainstorm meetings in the beginning of the year, our team determined that hanging would be the most important robot ability (I'm not saying that is the most important, just that we determined it would be our number 1 priority). In addition, hanging is a 1 or 0 situation. Herding has a grey zone. So if you can build a good system and test and see that it works, hanging would be better cause it's a guaranteed 50 pts.

We started out with the idea of being a jack-of-all-trades. We had herding flaps, a 2x multiplier handler, and a hanger. We decided it was far more important to hang and just rip the 2x ball of the goal instead of also recapping it. This is not the best strategy for all teams, but we wanted to do one thing and do it well. Then, when we couldn't hang, we always had the backup strategy of herding balls. This "plan b" saved our neck multiple times (good job, HP Tim).

Finally, it is not "boring" at all to watch a match of hangers. When hangers fight for the top, it is far more fun to watch than ball collecting. Take our 2nd semi-final match. Our alliance-mate hung (997) then, the opposing robot hung (957). We got on the bar and tried to lift ourselves (and the other two robots) up. Lifting 360 lbs of weight was too much for the hook - it gave up and we fell. Although we lost, this was one exciting match! In addition, at the Pacific regional, I think people clapped most when robots either hung or multiplied, not herded.

At the Pacific NW regional, many of the earlier matches were decided with very low scores like 30/35 and 40/15. Once the teams who had hanging improved it, scores skyrocketed. Record scores in order were (team setting the record in parenthesis): 130 (948 & 1256), 140 (948 & ?), 180 (360 I think). Every record-setting match had at least one hanger (correct me if I'm mistaken).

One thing that seemed unstoppable was the combination of a hanging robot and a capping robot. Even w/o any herding a capped 6-ball goal and a hanger gives you 110.

[MOEmaniac]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

One thing that seemed unstoppable was the combination of a hanging robot and a capping robot. Even w/o any herding a capped 6-ball goal and a hanger gives you 110.

A good example of this was at the J&J NJ Regional. Look which teams were in the winning alliance, team 237: one of the best if not the best hanger i have seen so far, team 303: small ball dominator and 2x ball dominator, and team 56: mobil goal domination.

These three teams worked perfectly together and the alliance did seem unstoppable

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by OneAngryDaisy

What truly amazes me is the low volume of teams who can hang from the floor- those steps are extremely dangerous, I know when my team was testing our treads we flipped every time, yet so many have designed elaborate drivetrains to go up those steps.. I somewhat wish we had a 'cool' drivetrain also, but it sure is a luxury to not have to worry about those steps. Did most of you think about this option instead of going up the steps?
*This was my opinion only and does not represent team 341*

Hanging from the floor.. Yeah, that would be nice.. but.

I think our major problem with hanging from the floor came from the fact that our mechanisn at the end of our arm needs strength from the arm to lift itself up.
We kept that design simple and went with a one jointed system with a pneumatic extension. If we had any more weight or joints we might be able to hang from the floor, but may not be able to sucessfully intergrate our mechanism into play, and would more than likely be over weight.
We are pushing 130.0 as it is now.
Remember that you also have to take the trigonometry of folding up a mechanism that will fit in the starting profile when designing an arm that will reach more than 10' in the air to grab that bar.

[RoteAugen]

okay, in response to this thread, I've submitted a strategy/counter-strategy sheet to the white pages. though it's very basic, enjoy

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

Hanging from the floor.. Yeah, that would be nice.. but.

I think our major problem with hanging from the floor came from the fact that our mechanisn at the end of our arm needs strength from the arm to lift itself up.
We kept that design simple and went with a one jointed system with a pneumatic extension. If we had any more weight or joints we might be able to hang from the floor, but may not be able to sucessfully intergrate our mechanism into play, and would more than likely be over weight.
We are pushing 130.0 as it is now.
Remember that you also have to take the trigonometry of folding up a mechanism that will fit in the starting profile when designing an arm that will reach more than 10' in the air to grab that bar.

Not always... we have a telescoping arm that can extend 12'', and its insanely fast also... use your creativity

[Ryan Foley]

Now why would you say hanging is a cheap strategy?
1) It's part of the game. The only cheap strategies in FIRST are those that break rules. The bar is in the game because FIRST wanted to see some hanging bots. Obviously if FIRST thought that just hanging was cheap there wouldnt be a bar to hang on.

2) You can beat a hanging bot, just block them from getting to the bar. And if they do latch on. just beat them with balls.

3) Doing only 1 thing IS A GREAT STRATEGY!!! It gives you all of build season to focus on building the mechanism for that task (the hanging arm for example), saving you time and money. Then your drive teams are so much better at it because they really only have to practice doing 1 thing.

4) Why shouldn't a team get awards when their robot only does one thing. They have played the game as they wanted to, and they, like the rest of us succeeded in building their robot. I have seen robots that do only one thing that are far more impressive than ones that do everything. Just because they only do one thing does not make their robot any less impressive or their team any less skilled.

5) Bots that only hang can be exciting too. With all the trouble getting up the platforms many bots have, its suspenseful watching to see if they can get on top without tipping over. Or try the match at BAE when 4 robots went for the bar at the same time.

6) remember that most of the time, simpler is better. I have watched many matches where the big fancy robot that does everything looses to a little tiny robot that only does one thing. Look at the top seed in BAE, Team 501 only hanged, and they did it well.

Honestly, doing 1 thing is a great strategy. Its simple, usually inexpensive, and usually quicker to build. If a team wants to do this than thats how they want to play the game, and it's their right to play it that way.

by the way, as far as teams that lack the bravery to do anything, consider a few things first:
-maybe that team didnt have the time, resources or money to build anything more than a box on wheels
-never underestimate what a box on wheels can do, they can surprise you
-the team still built a robot didnt they? That means they still did what they set out to do, build a robot
-perhaps the team might not be doing all these showy tricks in matches for fear of breaking or destroying their creation that they worked their buts off on for 6 weeks.

Teams can play the game anyway they want (except for breaking rules of course). Like I said, there arent any "cheap" strategies except those that break the rules or go against gracious professionalism. Obviously if FIRST thought something was "cheap" they would put something in the rules forbdding it (such as the tipping of another robot).