Batteries Again

[Mike Martus]

Wow! A lot of discussion regarding batteries and the chargers.

At first we (inspectors) were told, and teams were told to use only this years chargers and exide batteries from this year. As the day developed it was apparent that the 1 amp charger could not do the job.

A decision was made to allow teams to use the 4 amp chargers from last year and ONLY thr batteries from this year!

I have been speaking out that teams should be allowed as many batteries as they want but only 1 on the bot at a time ( as per FRC Q & A #376.

Last word here is: ONLY this years batteries, Only 2 batteries per team, last years 4 amp chargers.

I was explained that the intent was to make it fair since the Rookie teams had only two batteries, that all could only have two batteries.

Does it really matter how may batteries a team has.

I witness many robots at the end of the day with "Brown outs" as a result of low battery.

Vote on the poll. What do you think?

[Lloyd Burns]

Mike:

"Two batteries and last year's charger" would have to mean that FIRST's regional equipment would include enough of last year's chargers to replace the tiny Exide chargers for the rookies.

In a regional disproportionately populated with new teams who don't possess last year's charger, the result of anything other than two of this year's battery and this year's charger puts the rookies at a tremendous disadvantage. On the other hand, this rule would make for a disappointing competition.

[Matt Reiland]

We will bring all of our previous years chargers and last years batteries just in case. Our robot only lasts about 7 minutes on a full battery before its done. Whenever we are not using our chargers (we really only need one or 2 but I think we have six) I am sure they will be lent out to anyone who needs them. If more experienced teams do this we should be all set

[Katie Reynolds]

In a regional disproportionately populated with new teams who don't possess last year's charger, the result of anything other than two of this year's battery and this year's charger puts the rookies at a tremendous disadvantage.

Well... if we can only use this years two batteries, looks like we'll only be using two of our chargers from last year.... I'll bring all of our chargers and lend them out to rookie teams, if they need them. Not a problem!

- Katie

[ReijiH]

I really don't see the whole thing about "rookie teams being put at disadvantage" over a number of battery. If every team only bring 2 batteries and are constanly low or in desperate need of charging them in-between matches, even veteran teams wouldn't be able to rent out batteries, on the other hand, if veteran teams bring their old batteries, I'm quite sure there are many generous team who are willing to lend out batteries to the teams that are having problem with low batteries. Now exactly what put rookies at a disadvantage when most veteran teams with extra batteries are willing to lend one to other teams? According to the spirit of FIRST, technically no disadvantage.

[Mike Martus]

Teams playing in the final rounds had to borrow batteries in order to play. Many great teams came to their aid and they were able to run. It was announced over the PA by the announcer for help.

The teams that use several powerful motors need the battery power.

BTW in message #376 from the FRC Engineers they stated that teams could buy EXTRA batteries if they wanted. Are their answers worth anything?

QUESTION: Were the answers that FRC engineers gave on many questions all subject to change? Should we re ask every question to see if thoughts have changed?

Speak out on the battery issue if it matters to you.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Mike,
Can of worms here. I voted for unlimited batteries but that doesn't mean I would bring twenty. As a cooperative example, electrical and mechanical designers should keep the mech power to electrical power tradeoffs reasonable. This is after all a teaching experience for our students. In real world we do not design a motive system that runs out of power in two minutes so we should at least nudge designers into using more efficient systems. This year is far more demanding on power systems but that is what makes us great. Let's see how well the finalists do on keeping competitive with only two batteries.

[Melissa Nute]

I know that some of the senior team lend out the batteries to some of the rookie teams, I know our team did, so there really shouldn't be a limit on the number of batteries a team has.

[jeffreym]

We are a rookie team and have been trying very hard to follow the letter and the spirit of the rules but I am very frustrated over the battery and charger issue. I thought it was cleared up per FRC Q & A #376 that explained 1 battery per bot at a time but unlimited batteries waitinmg in the wings. We calculated that we would need 8 batteries to get through a day of competition and we would charge them all up overnight with 8 of the 1 amp chargers (we would buy 7 more like the ones in the kit). Well, we couldn't find any of the chargers to buy anywhere. When I contacted FIRST, they told me don't worry, there would be a rule change to allow last year's charger or the equivalent. That never happened. So we are left with batteries that will get us through the first day of competition but with the charging capacity to recharge only one of them. All of that at a considerable expense to our rookie team. With a reasonable charger, it all could have been prevented and at a much lower cost to the team. Now I am more confused than ever. Can we use more than 2 batteries or not?

[Tom Fairchild]

Originally posted by Al Skierkiewicz
This year is far more demanding on power systems but that is what makes us great. Let's see how well the finalists do on keeping competitive with only two batteries.

I think that having to design a more efficient system would be a wonderful test of engineering, but it was not one that teams were expecting to have to do during the building period. Sounds like a great idea for future years, just not this one.

~Tom Fairchild~, who just got back from VCU where there were multiple last minute rule changes.

[ReijiH]

I have a few question not directly related to the number of batteries issues, but more of the policy behind it.

1. Wouldn't letting team buy extra batteries force the rookies to be more financially stressed in due to the fact that they can't burrow batteries from veteran teams who would've had some spares if the stock-piled batteries were allowed?

2. OT Question

Al Skierkiewicz stated; " As a cooperative example, electrical and mechanical designers should keep the mech power to electrical power tradeoffs reasonable. This is after all a teaching experience for our students. In real world we do not design a motive system that runs out of power in two minutes so we should at least nudge designers into using more efficient systems. This year is far more demanding on power systems but that is what makes us great. Let's see how well the finalists do on keeping competitive with only two batteries. "

Sure, a veteran team with some electrical experiance from past years maybe more knowledgeable and resourceful to develope a powerful system that also work without consuming too much battery charge per match, but then again, wouldn't that also set rookies at farther disadvantage since veteran teams will most likely figure out the way to work best within the limitation better than rookie teams?

Now, again, this is very OT, but I think the so called "rookie friendly" rules this year is by far the most rookie-unfriendly rules I've seen in past few years of robotics. (I'm just griping...but along with the changing rules mid-construction, etc.)

[Joe Johnson]

The way that FIRST is treating the Yahoo! group makes the whole thing worse than useless.

Forget that it took them forever to make a clear ruling, now we discover that even when they DID make a clear ruling, it was really not final in any sense.

Examples:
Batteries, which we are all familiar with.

Tethers, again, which we are all familiar with, but it is worth pointing out that measuring tapes were allowed as legal -- one of the few examples given on the Yahoo! site that was definitely an entanglement threat and NOT legal.

Even shipping: After being asked if some sort of exception was going to be allowed for teams that had back to back regionals and being told VERY CLEARLY that no exceptions would be allowed, it turns out that exceptions ARE being made -- this after a number of teams have made EXPENSIVE efforts to live within the letter of the law as handed down from Mt. Yahoo!

The list goes on...

I think FIRST should really think long and hard about the rest of the season, and especially about next season.

This is not a environment good for growing gracious professionalism...

Joe J.

[Curtis Williams]

Our team bought a spare battery last year when we were rookies. We didnt actually need it, but its paying off this year. Because of the pushing and pulling nature of the game, we used up more battery power than bottled water and mountain dew combined. Remember that if the voltage drops below 8 volts the radio is turned off and your robot disabled for the rest of the match. Yes, it happened to us our first round.



*cough*sears 12-volt 6/2 amp manual battery charger*cough*

[jeffreym]

Joe Johnson - well said!

We are one of those rookie teams that has no perspective but that from this year. Things do feel very unfair - not only to rookie teams but to everyone. Our whole team is getting very discouraged even before our regional starts due to the issues you outlined above. We will probably look for an alternative to FIRST for next year if something is not done to correct the situation.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I would like to apologize to all the rookie teams out there. We have been here a long time and tend to forget our rookie year. (I was way out on the fringe that year as a parent non-participating.) Now that I am a veteran, I feel strongly about lending my experience and technical skills to whoever asks. The Delphi forums is the best place to do that I think. I forget that rookie teams have many things working against them.
1. Never having been to competition or being exposed to "gracious professionalism" they are not aware of their ability to ask for help and to come to expect genuine, accurate help in reply.
2. Are not aware of the resources available on the web for all the parts supplied or available.
3. Have no real training for adults to jump off the beginning of a first FIRST season other than the kickoff workshops.
4. The blessing of a veteran team who knows the value of a combination of software, mechanical, and electrical professionals to guide the design and student involvement.

In spite of these problems, there are always rookie teams who manage to be very competitive in their rookie year. Hats off to those who do well.

I have to agree with Joe (not something I do regularly. LOL)on the problems with the Yahoo forums. I chalk it up to the FIRST guys having too much to do on too short a staff. Having been there I am sympathetic and patient. However, it does seem that several persons on veteran teams have shown some insight to some of the problems that have come up each year (This year is no exception) and could easily form a commitee of sorts, that FIRST could put questions to and receive informed, technically based responses.
Good Luck All