College Students: How is your experience in FIRST?

[JVN]

Okay,
I'm going to be terribly open... this subject is very close to home, and I've given it a LOT of thought. I'll try to keep my thoughts conherent, and the rant-factor as low as possible. ;-)

College FIRST is a roller coaster.
Ups, and downs.

-There are many awesome moments, incredible positives, and times where you just love your involvement/can't get enough.

-There are also times where you're sick of your team, your school, FIRST, and you have a few choice words for Dean "freaking" Kamen and his "every college freshman should get their university involved" speech. ;-)

Really, you just have to make sure the ups outnumber the downs.

Everyone's experiences are unique.
It depends a lot on the team structure, support, and a TON of other factors. Some teams make it easy to be involved, others make it difficult.

I think it is 200% different to be a college student involved on an existing team, than being on a college team. (i.e. DJ being on 45, vs. Me on 229).
So obviously experiences vary with that. It all comes down to responsibility...

I imagine it is waaay easier for DJ to say "I have a big test to study for, I can't work this week" than it is for someone like Matt Adams (or myself... )
Often times, it becomes easy to say things like "my team is counting on me, I NEED to get this done". In my opinion... this pressure is almost too much.

I remember back in HS, when our mentor would say "That's it... I'm never doing this again." We all looked at him with our big HSer "bambi eyes" and said stuff like "You can't quit... we NEED you". Inevitably... he'd be back again.
I never thought I'd be one of those people threatening to quit every year, but being dragged back over and over again. (again... the ups and the downs... when you're down, it's easy to threaten you're never coming back). Mentor burnout sucks. It sucks a lot as an engineer, and ohhh baby does it suck as a college student.

Beware. Make sure your involvement is manageble. Make sure the resources are there to make your involvement EASIER on you (and your GPA) instead of HARDER. It can be a slippery slope. When "someone has to step up... it might as well be me".

Another thing to consider...
As a college mentor, are you in FIRST for the right reasons??
I was not.

It took a couple serious kicks in the butt (thanks man ) before I realized that I wasn't actually a college mentor... more like some over-aged HS student.

There are entire teams of over-aged HS students, and this isn't a terrible thing... but every team needs a few people who are... (at the risk of sounding terribly arrogant) beyond that.

There is a big difference between being an actual college mentor, and being a college-wannabe-HSer. The amout of effort it took me to bridge the gap is... incredible. (okay... you can all quit snickering... I know I'm still working on it).

Maybe other people have an easier time with this, and maybe I'm just weird but...
I spend every day trying to be a better mentor, and making sure our HS students are having a positive experience. I only hope I can do as well for them, as my mentors did for me.


Okay...
So... do I regret my involvement in college-FIRST and 229?
Well... yes and no. I would be a very different person... VERY different if the last 3 years of my life had been FIRST-less. A lot of interesting opportunites have opened up for me, I've met a lot of VERY interesting people, and been exposed to a lot of interesting things. (Note my choice of adjective )
It's been fun, but I do wish I had stayed a little bit higher up on the slope.

So along with Matt... I'll proclaim that I'm too involved.

I still wish Dean Kamen would get up on stage and say:
"To all you HS seniors... I have some HW for you... next year, when you go off to your respective institutions of higher learning... I want you to make sure, you do what is best for YOU. Settle in, get comfortable at school, make friends. Make sure you keep your grades respectible... and if you find time to stay involved with FIRST... GREAT. Volunteer at a regional, help a local team, drag some people to the nearest event. Do whatever you can to help this program, but only do what you can, and not more."

Fat Chance.



Then again... lots of people warned me and... it didn't matter. ;-)

JVN
Wanna-be-Mentor
229


PS - I've only begun to scratch the surface of my thoughts with this post. Feel free to get in touch if you want more ranting, or if you just want to tell me off.

PPS - Matt Adams is my hero. ;-) Keep fighting the good fight buddy.

[Stephen Kowski]

going straight from high school to college starting a team in my freshman year I will throw my two cents in.....

I'm with George in the fact that doing FIRST makes me happy....I could work harder in certain classes, but it is doubtful I would use that time productively.....

I cannot say it was easy to start this team (with RogerR's help), but hey if one person is affected how I was by FIRST I believe I did my job....

This is my first FIRST team that I've started, but I sincerely doubt it will be my last.....it is a lot of responsibility, but the companies nowadays are looking for leadership qualities.....a 4.0 is nice, but being able to put together projects start and finish them is what industry is really looking for.....

FIRST i believe is one huge driver for networking and industry contacts with this people in companies knowing who I am and what I've done and have no doubt that I can do the job.....basically I won't have to search for a job when i get my degree.....I will have jobs waiting for me.....

Overall the pressure and responsibility are worth it in the long run imho.....there are my two cents

now hopefully more ppl will come to USF to help start more teams, and work with the existing ones.....

[Amanda Morrison]

Being a college mentor is not an easy thing. You're all doing a great job in taking some action and being a positive influence, all in different ways. You should congratulate yourselves on the hard work and effort you've put into this program.

"It's what you do, and not what you say
If you're not part of the future, then get out of way..." - John Mellencamp

[Matt Adams]

Originally Posted by Matt Adams

...there's a handful of college students who are really able to commit the amount of time needed to inspire and teach students while building a well designed, competitive robot.

I'm not exactly sure if I need post this, but I guess I should perhaps tack on another characteristic about college sponsored programs that people may not think about.

Alumni.

Purdue University often talks about how there are more Purdue engineers practicing than from any other school in the country. Countless people stop by and say, "Hey, I went to Purdue! How are your robot doing?"

Mind you, there is NO PRESSURE from the alumni, they're honestly just curious. They're not going to pull funding or kick me off the team... I just have a huge amount of respect for Purdue and its alumni.

When those alumni ask me how we're doing, I want to be able to say, "We're doing great, our robot's performing well, and we're 4-2 today."

Saying "Uh, our robot's over the weight limit, our drive system broke down and we're 1-5" is something I just couldn't say.

Since I won't dare compromise the integrity of our team by cheating or entering grey areas, it means only one thing- we gotta work harder both in and out of season.

Since we have no practicing engineers, we need to rapidly educate our advisors and high schoolers with bare bones engineering information so that we're on the same page, on a yearly basis. I'll openly admit that some of our seniors this year were significantly better than a few new advisors, it's because of experience, dedication, and education that they've recieved.

On the plus side, since we have no practicing engineers and I'm among the oldest advisors, I need to be REALLY sure I can apply the engineering I'm learning in the classroom to real life. If this means getting ahead in a course to decide if a part will fail due to loading... I'm going to do it.

Maybe this is the way that engineers feel about the companies they work for, and maybe not. But nevertheless, this is something a lot of the advisors from Purdue and I feel very strongly about.

Matt

[Aaron Lussier]

When I started up in college I attended Wentworth while walking down the road to Northeastern to help out with team 125. I realized after a few meetings that this team wasnt like my old team. They didnt have one BIG sponsor that paid for everything they asked for and gave them huge amounts of money and working space.

To me seeing that, it was FIRST cluture shock, I honestly did not know what exactly I was going to be able to do on the team. Through out the pre-season I slowly got used to the new workshop and the new people that surrounded me, and then slowly I realized that I was no longer the one who took orders, I was the one giving them, not orders Persay, morelike sugesstions pushing the new students in the right direction.

Unfortanetly for certain reasons I decided to not return for the spring semester, this meant I would not be helping 125. I had a falling out with my Major at Wentworth, Mechanical Engineering. I decided I needed to distance my self as much as I could from any and all things Engineering, including FIRST.

However over christmas break, I got the bug, you all have gotten it before... Kickoff, yea I couldnt wait to go to kickoff and see what this years game entailed. Thinking simply I would go to Kickoff, watch and leave. That never happend, I stayed for the design meetings, eventually I started going to meetings again. Soon enough I was doing more than I had done in my Senior year in High School.

Through out the build season I used past lessons learned to keep the new kids on track as I had done with 125, but this was back with my Old team, so I felt much more comfortable doing it. I kept Morale up with everybody telling them it was going to be done on time, I always made sure everybody was doing something.

Toward the End of the season, one of the head engineeris with 151 approached me and said, that becasuse I had put in so many long hours as a mentor they decided that they were going to pay my way to Nationals. I was in and utter state of shock when they told me this. I had to idea that they would ever do something like that for me.

The last build night however was filled with downfalls, we found out due to center of gravity issuses our robot could not climb the lip as we had designed it to. Everybody who had worked so hard on it tried to be positive... but we couldnt it didnt work... what else was there? We shabbly packed both crates and left to go home and get some sleep.

I guess John said it best.

"You just have to make sure the ups outnumber the downs."

This year they did, we did great at regionals are are hoping to do better at Nationals

and Ken to answer your question...

Better than I could have ever Imagined!

-Aaron

[Ken Leung]

A lot of great responds guys, thank you so much. We touched on a lot of good points. Before we start going off into different directions based on the responds we've seen, I want to focus our energy into a more specific topic on this subject, and move onto the next level of discussion. If you want to reply to the original post, feel free to do so, but please reply under that original post.

Now, moving into a more focused topic, I want to talk about the concept of a "College FIRST mentor". More specifically, I am talking about those college students who decided to start their own team when they went from high school to college. They often play a major, if not a complete role as a team leader as well as a college student. My questions for you fellow college student is this:

Have you been this role before? And if so, how did it affect your life, school work, and participation in FIRST? If not, do you think this is something you want to do?

Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? Why or why not?

Do you think college students are appropriate mentors? How do they compare to adult mentors who are teachers, engineers, or parents?

I want to focus in this topic because I've seen many friends who ran a team when they went to college, got burnt out, and told me that experience had a negative impact on their lives. I myself am not convinced it is what college student should do when they graduate from high school. But I won't post any of my opinions until others have done so. So, please reply under this post, and keep all the answers to the original questions under the thread starter.

Can't wait to see more responds!

[MikeDubreuil]

I think the hardest part about being a college mentor is being able to effectively connect with the high schoolers. We're too far apart in age to be at the same maturity level. At the same time we're close enough that we can understand their problems. I know for me, the older I get the more effective I am in mentoring.
It makes for a great team if you can balance high schoolers, college mentors, and parents. The parents know how to collectively and calmly talk to the high school kids. Which makes parents great coaches.

[melitami]

I think that college students make good mentors, I went back and mentored my old team when I was home on co-op my sophomore year and it went well. BUT, I think that it needs to be in combination with other adult mentors. College mentors are good because they give a different perspective than a practicing engineer or a parent could, and the HSers can go to them for questions about college apps and college programs and how college is and such. But a college student is still a student and I think still needs some guidance and first and for most is a student, so they can't do alone, as much as they want to try.

With the Drexel FIRST Robotics club, I'm actually quite proud of my group, since they decided at our last meeting that for next year, we are not going to start our own team. They feel that we would be more help to the Philly area teams if we mentored the existing teams rather than start our own team. So my plan to stay involved in FIRST in college is to mentor needy area teams and volunteer at regionals, rather than start my own team. Engineering isn't easy (esp.when you're doubling in EE and BME like me), and I tell everyone in the robotics club I understand if they don't have the time to mentor a team, but they want to stay involved. That's what volunteering at a regional, or an FLL tournament, or an off-season comp is for.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How is your experience in FIRST?

I’ll start from the beginning. My first FRC season was back in 2000 as a junior in high school. Our team was led at the time by my former Physics teacher Eric Stokely. We didn’t really have any student leadership that year. No team captain per say. In 2001, as a senior, I was one of our team’s captains and pretty much the only member who went out and met / became friends with people on other teams. After the 2001 season, Eric Stokely announced that he was moving to the Seattle area and that he wouldn’t be back the following year. We scrambled around to try to find another faculty member to take his place as the team’s advisor, but we had no success. A retired EE, Dr. Harry Garland, volunteered to lead the team during the 2002 FRC season. In 2002 I came back as a “college mentor” and helped with strategy, design, and fabrication. Dr. Garland returned as the team’s advisor (still no faculty members) for the 2003 build period, and I again helped with strategy, design, and fabrication. This season is different, though. Dr. Garland has been busy with a company that he started up in the past 18 months, and has been unable to lead our team. I officially became the “Lead Mentor” last fall.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How involved are you in FIRST?

I probably put in about 150 or so man hours during the 2000 build period.

I probably put in about 200 or so man hours during the 2001 build period. I also helped setup at the Silicon Valley Regional.

In 2002 I put in over 400 man hours of work (twice the amount I had done the previous year) during the build period, and roughly $4,000 of my own money (against the advice of people like Jason Morrella). In 2002 I volunteered at both the Silicon Valley Regional and the Southern California Regional.

In 2003, for the second straight season, I put in over 400 man hours of work during the build period, and more than $2,500 of my own money. In 2003 I volunteered at the Sacramento Regional, Southern California Regional, and The Championship Event.

In 2004 I, yet again, put in over 400 man hours of work during the build period, but only $500 or so (because my brother Jim foot the bill for roughly $1,500 worth of materials). I’m going to be volunteering at the Sacramento Regional this week.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How is FIRST affecting your school work?

My involvement in FIRST makes Spring Semester pretty much impossible to deal with. I’ve never been a fulltime student during the Spring any of the years I’ve been a college mentor. I would have failed so many classes had I taken them. Not being a fulltime student, I was summoned to jury duty for the week of the Sacramento Regional, but I was lucky enough that they granted my request for a postponement. *phew*

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Do you honestly thing college students can handle the load of being a student, and being a team leader?

It depends on what being a “team leader” entails on your team. If it’s anything like being a team leader on 258, then there’s not a chance in hell a college student could handle that load, which is why I’m not a fulltime student. If you don’t have to deal with every aspect of the team, then there’s a chance that you can take classes while guiding a team through a build, but I would definitely not suggest it. I would be too afraid of the nights where you lay in bed for hours sweating and thinking about all the things you need to get done the next day, all the things you need to design or buy or beat out of the other people on your team. I hate that feeling, and I’ve felt it way too much this year.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? Why or why not?

Mentoring a team is tons of fun when you can focus on whatever aspect you like about FIRST. If you can focus on one or two things, then mentoring can be one of the greatest experiences of your life. Having the money to pay for your team’s materials (not out of your own pocket) is even better. But if I was able to just focus on designing and machining while teaching and not worry about ordering things, delegating jobs, making sure everyone was on task, etc. then I would be feeling great and I could probably be a fulltime student.

But sort of like what JVN said earlier, whenever I hear Dean’s speech about college kids going out and starting a team or helping a team or getting their college / employer to start a team I feel like screaming. It’s a ton to ask of a person who should try to focus on their education, and getting acclimatized to their college.

On a side note... I was so upset when Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield & Byers announced they would only gave veteran teams grants if they mentored a rookie team. This started up a lot of teams out here in California over a 2 year period, but then when KPC&B backed down their donations this past year a lot of teams went under. They forced an expansion that couldn’t be sustained without their support, and then (as far as I can see) they just walked away and left 15-20 teams to perish or otherwise suffer. I saw this coming back in 2001 when they announced this type of sponsorship. I can see similar things happening to college student founded teams in the future (especially teams where the college students run the team). If for some reason the college mentor supply runs out, or isn’t constantly replenished each year the team runs the risk of losing its leadership / design assistance / machining facilities / etc. There are some pretty scary scenarios that could play out in the next 5 years or so for some current teams and some future teams.


I would write more, but I can't really think of what to say at the moment (and I need to drive to Sacramento in 7 hours).

[Matt Leese]

I think I can safely say at this point that I've almost done it all with FIRST. I've learned a lot from it including a lot of what not to do. I spent three years in high school on a very student run team (1998 to 2000 on team 7). After I graduated from high school I thought that this had prepared me very well to do anything I wanted in FIRST. I was very wrong; I still had quite a bit to learn.

My first year in college (2001) I helped (although helped might be a bit weak word) to restart team 73 and ended up running the team. In short, it almost ended as a total mess. We did manage to work everything out in the end but many things went wrong. One of the major things I learned from that experience is that you need to either be involved in adminstrative issues or engineering issues, not both.

In 2002, given that 73 didn't have any funding, I participated as a mentor on 340. This was a rather different experience as 340 was well organized, well funded, and had a strong mentor base. I simply helped with the electronics and the programming that year.

In 2003, I helped with the second restart of 73 during the off season and then went on coop for the winter. That year I mentored team 888 which made me attempt to be a mechanical engineer which did not turn out so well.

In May of 2003 we started to float the idea of RIT holding a regional competition in 2005. I was involved in the initial start up of that effort and only became less involved because I moved to California for a coop. While I arrived here in the middle of the first week of build, I was connected with team 1135. They asked me to be their engineering lead and (somewhat against my better judgement) I accepted. We got a robot built but otherwise we can't exactly decide whether or not the season was successful.

There are a number of issues wrapped up in being a college mentor. I think I've been saying that you have to make sure you're in FIRST for the right reason as long as John V. Neunn has been (or maybe even longer). We loose more than half of the people that initially show up for meetings from our team simply because it wasn't what they expected. It's important to remember that every team is different and that you shouldn't expect it to be the same as when you were in high school. If you're not mentoring for the sake of the students, you're usually better off not doing it at all.

FIRST also requires a huge time committment. It takes a good amount of maturity (an amount that some college students are missing) in order to be able to schedule your school work, your personal life, and FIRST successfully and not neglect one of them too greatly.

Have I burned out? Yes, and I've said many times that this year will be my last year (or I need a break). None of its happened. Part of that is because I feel a responsibility to the program, part of it is because I like FIRST a lot. I think I used to be more involved (I think most of the people from the old days of Chief Delphi know me but many fewer from now) outside of my team but I've just lost the energy with which to do it. Part of that has been my coping strategy for dealing with the stress; just don't be quite as involved so that I don't take things as badly when they go wrong.

The question was posed as to whether or not college freshmen should join FIRST teams. The answer is yes if you're doing it for the right reason, if you can schedule your school work around it successfully (the key being successfully), and if you can be a positive contributing member of the team. But this is pretty much the same for any mentor.

For the final questions Ken posed, college students can make great mentors. They can also make awful mentors. It's the same way with adults. I don't really see much of a difference between the mentoring ability of adults and college students simply because there really isn't any. We're all people and we all can do either well or badly.

Matt

[Matt Adams]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? Why or why not?

I think this is a really important question to ask, and the answer is pretty obvious: It depends. Not every high school student is cut out to be a mentor.

If you put in 250 hours during the build season, eagerly waited around for jobs to do, drove the robot for 4 years, have 2,000 posts on Cheif Delphi and your whole life was changed by FIRST.... it doesn't matter in the slightest.

One doesn't become a mentor because of a title, age, or even because of their passion. You becomes a mentor when you've truly touched someone's life.

I see the title of mentor, advisor, and engineer thrown around interchangablely in these threads... when it couldn't be farther from the truth. The minute that YOU decide that YOU are a mentor or a role model is the time when you probably couldn't be farther from it. It's not a God-given title or one you bestow upon yourself, it's a title given by someone else whose life you've touched who decided to let you know.

To keep on topic a bit more... college students, I believe, can be among the greatest mentors. The age difference is minute, and it gives high school students the unique opportunty to see not where they'll be in 10 or 20 or 40 years, but where they'll be in 2 or 3. They'll have the chance to see that college isn't about partying and keggers, but rather it's about growing up, getting a better grasp about the world around you, getting an education in a focused field you enjoy, giving back to your community, sleepless nights, cramming for exams, and having a once in a lifetime chance to do things you wouldn't be able to do otherwise.

When high school students see THAT aspect of college, the reality of it, it loses that unatainable aura. It motivates them to do better in school so they can be just like YOU. It's incredibly humbling and incredibly rewarding.

So to answer the question:

Q: Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor?

A: Only if you're going to give 100% of yourself, and try to improve the lives of the students you're working alongside by living out a life that will have a positive affect on them.

If you just want to build a robot, just want to have a good time, or if you want try to relive your high school days... don't bother. Don't go back to your high school's team because you have nothing better to do or because you really miss FIRST. Go back and make a difference- don't just participate.

Matt

[Ken Leung]

Originally Posted by Matt Leese

For the final questions Ken posed, college students can make great mentors. They can also make awful mentors. It's the same way with adults. I don't really see much of a difference between the mentoring ability of adults and college students simply because there really isn't any. We're all people and we all can do either well or badly.
Matt

I think I should clarify where I am coming from when I ask that question.

Considering a mechanical engineering major college student. Do you think he/she is a better mentor than an mechanical engineer with industry experience, who've done many work on robotics or automobiles? How about a junior in college compare to a parent who is also on the school PTA board? Or comparing to an experienced teacher who've taught physics for many years?

Do you really think college students can be good mentors, when we just graduated high school ourselves, with nothing more than FIRST experiences in ourselves, and still waiting to see the world out there and decide what we want to do?

There are some pretty amazing college students who are still participating in FIRST. They are amazing because they are good at coaching their team, organizing off season events, or build good robots because of their FIRST experiences. But, do you think they make great mentors? That is the question I post to the rest of you.

Don't quickly assume my answer is no based on what I wrote in this post. I am just trying to get you thinking ;-).

[Alavinus]

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How is your experience in FIRST?

My experience in FIRST has impacted my career choice more then anything else. As a high schooler, I honestly did not know what I wanted to do. After two years of FIRST, I decided to study mechanical engineering. I can safely say that I love the program and the crazy things that everybody does in it.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How involved are you in FIRST?

I am the lead mentor with team 1123. I was at all of the build meetings except one or two and put in an extreme amount of time in on the robot. I also volunteered at Richmond for three days . I admit that it is difficult at times because I haven't started any sort of ME classes yet. (Still in the basics). I am basing my guidance off of what I have seen or done in the past and it seems to be working. The difference between being a participant and being a mentor is huge and I am still adjusting. It is absolutely amazing how much more you think of stuff that can go wrong when you are a mentor.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

How is FIRST affecting your school work?

This is something that I am proud to say: Not at ALL!!
Let me elaborate: I go to Kettering University where the Co-op program involves all grades and runs in three motnh intervals. From October to December I was in Michigan, in college. Now, from January to the end of March, I am in Virginia, working at my job. Since I have the benefit of not taking classes while doing FIRST, it hasn't affected my grades.

Originally Posted by Ken Leung

Do you honestly thing college students can handle the load of being a student, and being a team leader?

I don't know if I can say yes or no. I have seen college students do amazing things and I think some could very well handle it. I also think that freshmen should NOT try to start a team. While I put in many, many hours, I don't have homework or papers coming due. It would be much better for freshmen to get their feet on solid ground then to try to do all the administrative stuff, as well as lead the build team. (As for me personally, I think I could pull it off. It wouldn't be as much fun as it is now, but with the right group of students I think I could do it. I ended up doing some admin stuff this year, as well as lead the build team so I think I could do it.)

Now that youv'e clarfied, a followup-
I think college students can make good FIRST mentors, even if we don't have the experience to back it up. After doing FIRST for four years, I generally know what will and what won't break. I can't prove that it will and our robot is probably exteremly inside the safety margins, but it accomplishes its task.
FIRST is like industry experience in a way. After doing a job for a period of time, you know what goes and what doesn't. It's just like when a machinist tells you something will break. He has seen it enough times that he doesn't need to prove it mathmatically, although kudos if he can. While most machinsists have years of experience, I think the analogy is still somewhat valid.

Sincerely,
Andrew LaVinus
College student at Kettering University and Mentor of Team 1123

[Allison K]

Originally Posted by Ken Lueng

Have you been this role before? And if so, how did it affect your life, school work, and participation in FIRST? If not, do you think this is something you want to do?

THis is my first year as a mentor. I completely and wholeheardedly want to keep doing this. BUt I think some help is in order. I'm the only "adult" on the team, and between last night and tomorrow my responsibilities include-getting a hold of a tax exempt form, and then apply for grants - order more of our fundraising stuff - buy a hacksaw, cause hand saws don't work so well on aluminum - find somebody to help my programmer and/or figure it our myself - open a bank account for the team, which entails getting an employee identification number - contact the newspaper that wants to do a story on us - find a team that can donate/lend us five victor 883's and 3 spikes - figure out how to raise $300 to buy the radios - and learn how to use inventor, so I can teach them. It's kinda hard getting everything done myself.

Originally Posted by Ken Lueng

Do you recommend other High School graduates to become a college FIRST mentor? Why or why not?

Mostly Yes. I say if there's a team in your area that you can mentor go for it. To kind of ease you in to mentoring with out having to do everything. If you do decide to start a team, make sure you have help. And it's okay to take a year to practice. I'm really glad my team did or we would have struggled the whole season.

Originally Posted by Ken Lueng

Do you think college students are appropriate mentors? How do they compare to adult mentors who are teachers, engineers, or parents?

Mostly Yes. It depends a lot on the person. I think if you have a college student along with engineers, teachers, parents, it's great. I think with a group of say, three college students, it would be a lot easier than just one. I also mentored 226 this year, but it was a completely different experience because there's also engineers and teachers and older college mentors. I think the hardest part about about being a college mentor (and the only adult) is the lack of age difference and only being a year away from being a kid myself. Some of the kids on the team are not even a year younger than I. Everything else there's just a lot of it.


Yes, mentoring is hard work. Some meetings I come home, and I want to beat my head against the wall. But it's all worth it and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I think the best moment for me this year was the first time they didn't design a battlebot and I realized I had finally beat an ounce of GP into them.

Allison

[ErikJ]

Most people have hit up what was going to my big point - being a college student and running a FIRST team is a tough task. Matt Adams makes an important distinction - I'd have to say it's much harder to be on an all college mentor team than one that's mixed (I can say that b/c I've been on both - 128 originally had Ohio State students and AEP engineers, and now teams 677, 1014, and 1317 are nearly all Ohio State students (with a few parents here and there)). He also alludes to another big problem - turnover rates. It's very challenging to develop a self-sustaining team when, by definition, the turnover rate is quite high. We usually get 2 or 3 good years out of our mentors. How can you develop a team that is self sustaining while facing the challenging of having no long term mentors, other than potentially a professor (we've been blessed, others may not be so lucky)? We've tried to address that within our org structure and culture - it's important that we try to pass on our knowledge and cultivate younger members and groom them for the future. But, it's often a mixed bag. For us we've found it's much easier to find indians than cheifs, and how do you identify potential leaders in such a short time frame?

As far as college students serving as effective mentors, this is a topic I've thought about a great deal. In talking with our students, they find that it's easier to talk to us and ask us questions because we're much closer to them in age (this I think was the case when we had a mentor mix on team 128 as well). I also think (no offense) that we do a better job of explaining things to them, since it wasn't too long ago that we were in their shoes. Often times people will take the time to explain step 4 to someone without realizing the don't understand steps 0 through 3. I think we as college mentors avoid this pretty well (and team 1014 has an Engineering Inspiration Award that would agree with me). Granted, we're all still learning too - we make *plenty* of mistakes and stupid design choices that most engineers probably wouldn't make. But, in a way that's a good thing - the students learn from our failures just as much as we do.

We've also found that the students almost enjoy our underdog status - the lowly underfunded college team vs. the big scary engineers. For example, the students got a big kick when team 677 was picked as an alliance partner in Chicago 2002 - the picking team (sorry, don't remember who ) didn't realize that we were made of college students and an all girls high school. They really enjoyed the fact that we were picked on our merits, and were able to hold our own against the "real" engineers. The same goes for the college students as well. We get to pick on the other project teams who compete against only other college students - our competition has a huge experience advantage of us. It's nice to go into a competition and hold our own, and the lofty goal of performing well against the Andy Baker's and Joe Johnson's of the world serves as a great motivator.

How about another side question - what about students mentoring their old team once they graduate high school? We've only had one mentor sucessfully make the transition from mentee to mentor working with their "home" school. Having seen students come back, I think they often have a hard time fitting in in either realm - they still have friends they still talk to, so they (and their friends) have a hard time making that adjustment to authority figure and role model. The other mentors see them as still trying to fit in with the HS students and not make the leap, and their HS friends don't see them as a mentor. However, since we sponsor 3 teams, something we have had some sucess in is having students work as mentors after graduation, but with another school. That eliminates a lot of those problems. There's still the issue of the mentors "accepting" their former student as a peer, but that's never been an issue since we try to make an effort to treat the HS students as peers.

Another interesting side debate - how are all college teams (the OSU, Purdue, WPI, etc.) of the world viewed by the community at large? If you look down the list, those teams usually do well in competition, so it might be a non issue. But... are there stereotypes that we must overcome to be considered "sucessfull"?