"Spare Parts" Rules Are Broken

[KenWittlief]

I just search all the manual for:
hotel
remove
overnight

and I cant find anyplace that says you are not allowed to take parts from your bot out of the facilities overnight and work on them - was this another one of those rules from previous years that has been dropped?

[Don Wright]

Hmmm....good point... I don't know.

[KenWittlief]

Personally I think it would be a great idea - what a super way for teams to work together if they are able to goto a teams local facilities and make mods or repairs after the pits close at night

seriously, this is chairmans award material!

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

...and I cant find anyplace that says you are not allowed to take parts from your bot out of the facilities overnight and work on them ...

I don't see how you can be reading the same update I am reading!

I am serious. The bit about working on the robot after the ship date is specifically titled "At Events" If this is not enough, it says you may work in the pits or a facility open to all teams. Also, FIRST says you have to meet insurance and others requirements, including using the official desk to request work (even your own work).

It is silly to think that you can have your hotel room meet these requirements.

It seems to me that there is enough to worry about with regard to these rules without conjuring up frivolous ones.

Joe J.

[KenWittlief]

because of the times they listed: you are allowed to work on your bot from 8am thursday to 5pm on saturday.

thats what it say - the machine shops are sometimes off site - and it says that teams can use their own local shops as long as they are open to all teams - which is not physically 'at the event'

[dlavery]

We've lost.

It is now official.

The lawyers have won.

The fact that this recent discussion since Update 15 is even taking place illustrates that even a well-intentioned group of engineers and would-be-engineers can never avoid looking for loopholes and ways around the rules. Thus, lawyers are necessary. If this trend continues then we are doomed, as our entire social structure will eventually grind to a halt as we require arbitrators just to discuss grocery lists.

I cannot think of a more blatant example where a ruling from FIRST is about to be bent and perverted in a more irrational manner. It is intuitively obvious that a machine shop made available to teams in support of a competition event would have operating hours limited to the active hours of the event. To even suggest that teams could host a "72-hour machine shop marathon" off site and outside the control of the event is silly. At the close of every day at every event, the pit announcer always makes it clear that teams must put down their tools, stop working on their robots, and take some time off. Why in the world would anyone think that the rules would be any different for a team-provided shop?

And please don't use the "well they never said we couldn't!" excuse! FIRST never explicitly said that I could not bring a Boeing 747 to the event site and put it on display in the center of the play field either. But it is intuitively obvious to even my 4-year-old neighbor that is not acceptable, and would not be allowed. So why are we apparently unable to make the same distinction when it comes to something like this?

OK, so here is the deal - if ANYONE honestly believes that it is now OK to have a team-provided machine shop up and running during the off-hours of the competition event, I will take personal responsibility to work with FIRST to generate a new rules update (#16?) that specifically addresses this issue, and have them will spell out, in excruciating detail, the exact hours (down to the nearest nano-second, as determined by the atomic clocks at the U.S. Naval Observatory) of permitted operation. And we will show that we are incapable of applying common sense to an issue like this. And we will force FIRST back to the position of publishing an encyclopedia of rules every year at the kick-off because we can't be trusted to do the sensible. And we will then all whine about how there are so many rules that it is impossible for the entire team to understand them all, and how we have to fully dedicate one team member just to reading and interpreting the rules and ensuring we are in compliance.

And the lawyers will win.

-dave

p.s. 8am Thursday through 5:00pm Saturday is only 57 hours, not 72.

[meaubry]

Dave,
Are you okay? I could almost feel you seizing up and the blood rushing to your face on that last rant. I'm not exactly sure how to address the issue of lawyers winning, I didn't know they were playing. Seems to me that if everyone simply stopped being judgemental of what the true meaning of a rule was (ambiguous ones and painfully obvious ones) then everyone would be better off. Seems to me that we make more out of breaking rules unintentionally than is necessary. I just won't spend any more of my time wasting it trying to convince people that my interpretation of a rule is better or more accurate than theirs is. FIRST is what it is - Some teams will interpret things what ever way they want to. I can't do anything about them - nor do I think I want to focus my attention on them. Those that do things that might not be considered gracious, nor professional - will do so either out of ignorance or by choice. I forgive everyone that unintentionally has broken any rule - I trust that once they found out they broke one, they wouldn't continue doing so. I can't and won't ever convince those that break the rules by choice that they are wrong. I cannot determine when the lawyers are winning - frankly I just don't care if they win as long as my students learn, get inspired, and have fun doing so.
Let's stay positive and everyone will win

It's obvious from many of the questions that were posted this year, that many teams look for loopholes in the rules/guidelines. At the kickoff, Dean gave a demonstration of "straddling", but there were still questions about straddling and other issues that were probably obvious to many, but clearly weren't obvious to all: what is hanging? is a servo a motor or electronics? do we really have to leave those blue wires?

If we really want teams to interpret the rules from a common ground, the manual should provide clear principles behind the rules. Consider a young team who feels that FIRST is all about working hard, getting no sleep, and persevering through adversity. They could easily interpret the rules about construction time to mean "work really hard for 6 weeks; then work non-stop from Thursday to Saturday at the competition." While an off-site shop has to be shared with other teams, they might not see anything wrong with staying up all night using hand tools in their hotel room. I don't think that implies any malice; it's just a lack of understanding of what the rule is really after.

Perhaps a page should be added to section 1 of the manual, after the description of GP, describing guiding principles behind the rules: safety (mechanical and electrical); GP (not hindering or destroying robots or field); design resources (why is there a budget; why can't we use the drive train we built last year; why can't we build spare parts after we ship). I think that people who have been with FIRST for a while have developed an intuitive sense for the "spirit of the law". But we can't assume that everyone has that same insight.

[KenWittlief]

Dave - im really sorry if we are pushing your buttons here

you have to understand one thing - there are a lot of us out here who LOVE this stuff- not parsing the rules - im talking about FIRST, getting our bot to be the best it can - thinking through every little detail and trying our best to give it our all.

Some of the best times I have had on FIRST was leaving work on friday afternoon from Xerox, going to the Xcats site, and working on the bot straight through till sunday morning - mentors and students (the weekend before shipdate)

there is something about being in survival mode - something about a challenge - something about being competive that bonds people together

or another time, at epcot, after the championship was over on saturday, sitting by the pool with another engineer late at night, talking about how we could talk Xerox into starting a second team - and we decided, if Xerox wont do it why cant the two of us start a new team by ourselves? (Xerox did start a second team the following year, and that other engineer DID start a third new team - Jeff Debes and team 1450)

or this year at pittsburgh - our bot was drifting to the right in auton mode - even though we have a closed loop gyro compass - when I did the last room check on the students thurday at midnight, I hit the sack, and suddenly it came to me - why our bot was drifting the right - do you think I was able to sleep after that? no! out comes the notebook PC and Im looking at my code in the wee hours

and its not just FIRST- its engineering - Ive had plenty of jobs where we pulled all nighters - or worked straight through a weekend to get ready for a trade show or a product lauch date

we are not trying to find ways to keep working on the bot to get an advantage over other teams, or to make life miserable for FIRST

we do it cause we LOVE it! you cant put a clock or a timer on something like this - you cant tell people "now go out for dinner and dont think about this till tomorrow at 8am"

(we love you too Dave - Dave? Stop banging your head on the keyboard Dave :^)

[jimfortytwo]

Ken's observation represents a literal reading of what the black and white says. The counterpoint relies on an interpretation of those rules to expland their meaning, primarily based on previous year's experience (what has been dubed "common sense"). If we read and write the rules so that the newcomer may take them literally and understand whats going on-- thats fine. If we read and write the rules and ensure everyone understands that a great weight of old-time momentum, past precidence, and unwritten rules apply-- that could be fine too. The transition, however, is killing us.

I understand how difficult it is to write bulletproof rules, and particularly how impossible the feat is on the fly. However, this "commen sense" only can exist in the minds of those who have already played the game. And if KenWittlief and dlavery can't agree on what the rules say, who knows which interpretation a rookie team is going to run with?

More ink has been spilt this year arguing over what "common sense" is than was in the rule book to begin with. Lawyers don't argue over whats written in black and white -- they argue over whats written in grey.

Anyways. My team won't be partying at midnight in the parking lot over by team XXX's mobile machine shop, but if someone else was I wouldn't be able to hold it against them until after someone warns them what we've decided the rule means.


EDIT: While I was typing this WebWader125 probably expressed my sentiments in a more gentile manner.

Theres another competition I do where every year a three page "uP policy paper" has to get passed around to explain rules that used to be in the book, but now veterans all just take for granted. Everyone sort of understands that this document is a ton of work for the one crusader who publishes it, and is a result of holes and ommisions in the existing rules... but one no wants the event rules themselves to break 2 pages (it wouldn't be pretty in the competition manual anymore.)

I'm sure everyone will survive the season, reguarless of whether or not team XXX needs a friendly tap on the shoulder to remind them to wrap it up at 7:00.

[KenWittlief]

maybe we should forget the written text rules and hand everyone a Yourden bubble diagram instead

THAT we could all understand and all agree to :^)

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST never explicitly said that I could not bring a Boeing 747 to the event site and put it on display in the center of the play field either. But it is intuitively obvious to even my 4-year-old neighbor that is not acceptable, and would not be allowed.

Darnit, darnit, darnit! That was our plan for the Midwest Regional. How did you know?!?

We had this grand scheme to bring in a 727 (747 was just toooo big!) with "TechnoKats 45" painted on the side and plop it down, right in the middle of the playing field. That would've been AWESOME! We were going for the spirit award, but now Dave has squashed our creative idea.

Hmmm... maybe we'll have to think of something else. Phooey on you, Dave!



Andy B.

[Ricky Q.]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Darnit, darnit, darnit! That was our plan for the Midwest Regional. How did you know?!?

We had this grand scheme to bring in a 727 (747 was just toooo big!) with "TechnoKats 45" painted on the side and plop it down, right in the middle of the playing field. That would've been AWESOME! We were going for the spirit award, but now Dave has squashed our creative idea.

Hmmm... maybe we'll have to think of something else. Phooey on you, Dave!



Andy B.

Just like you Delphi teams, showing off all those millions of dollars you each get, while you are at it why don't you put a machine shop in the plane and fly it around during non-competition hours, do it over international waters too.

In all reality though, people that are crazy on FIRST teams will always be thinking/talking about what to do with their robots, that is their choice. After every Thursday or Friday at comeptition we will all sit down at dinner and talk about nothing but what we are going to do the following day, drivers and coaches will sit down and pound out strategy, programmers will pour over their code, and then we all charge into the pits and get to work. It is part of the challenge, get your ideas together and organized and get it done in the time you have. The time allotted to work on robots needs to be controlled and equal for all teams, that is just the way it is and the way it will be.

[Raul]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Darnit, darnit, darnit! That was our plan for the Midwest Regional. How did you know?!?

We had this grand scheme to bring in a 727 (747 was just toooo big!) with "TechnoKats 45" painted on the side and plop it down, right in the middle of the playing field. That would've been AWESOME! We were going for the spirit award, but now Dave has squashed our creative idea.

Hmmm... maybe we'll have to think of something else. Phooey on you, Dave!



Andy B.

Andy,

Forget Dave's interpretation. I think if you could pull it off, the MWR teams would let you slide if you bring the 727 completely disassembled and then reassemble it in there.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Darnit, darnit, darnit! That was our plan for the Midwest Regional. How did you know?!?

We had this grand scheme to bring in a 727 (747 was just toooo big!) with "TechnoKats 45" painted on the side and plop it down, right in the middle of the playing field. That would've been AWESOME! We were going for the spirit award, but now Dave has squashed our creative idea.

Hmmm... maybe we'll have to think of something else. Phooey on you, Dave!



Andy B.

You both are close, but it's "intuitively obvious" that those commercial flights are rather boring. I'm partial to the FA-18 and/or the Harrier Jet for superior handling and offensive capabilities. That should get the drive team to the field in style.