What do you think

No, I don't think this is a flaw in the system. Its the mistake of the teams that didn't choose you. If your robot was as good as you say it is, they should have had you on their list even though you were in the top eight. In scouting we include everybody above us in ranking and then just cross them off if they choose a team (and not us). I do not think FIRST should change the Alliance Selection procedure. If nothing else, its a suspensful part of the competition.

[SkitzoSmurf]

I would not blame the coincidence on FIRST. There were MANY good teams at UTC, and picking the best partners was very tough. It all depends on the choosing teams strategy. For example my team has a meeting and ranks each team to our specifications, and then ranks whom we wish to pick first, followed by the next ranking team in case our first choice is picked by someone else.
Also, the game this year ranks team by their number of wins, AND THEN qp's. This may be a flaw in FIRST, but I still wouldn't point fingers. I mean, if your team wins all of their matches, GREAT, but if you won by only five points or so, not so impressive, however that puts you up in the ranks. I think teams don't look at ranks, but at qualities, and effectiveness. And if it's not up to their standards, or isn't as great as other teams, your lower on the list to pick from. Now I'm saying this in general to give an example, and have nothing whatsoever against your team. I saw you guys out there, and you were good, so I don't know what happened. On a second note; the alliance captains of the top seeded teams did not seem to be prepared or aware of the alliance choosing rules, so this might have also had an impact on why your team wasn't chosen. I don't know what happened out there. This is a one time instance for your team, and it just happpens. I am sure that your team won't be on a streak of bad luck, so cheer up, and good luck in the future!

[J Flex 188]

I dont believe that FIRST pays for anyone anywhere to goto nationals even after they won a competition (someone correct me if wrong please =D). The same thing happened when 188 won west michigan last year. There was only 1 or 2 weeks in between and what ended up happening was that only the drive crew, human player, 1 teacher and 1 mentor went to houston while the rest of us stayed at home. I feel for your team, but theres not much anyone can do right now, and personally I feel the system is fine the way it is. Maybe your team could try to talk it up with the other teams a bit more? Prepare flyers and handouts and distribute them just before alliance pickings? or have representatives go out and talk with the high seeded teams as well. A lot of times high seeds pick other high seeds and then the 9th, 10th, 11th seeded teams pick and some do so without pre-scouted lists because they didnt originally believe they had to. At pittsburgh something like the 12th or 13th seeded team got to pick

Originally Posted by BoyWithCape195

(we dont have the money....only way would have been to win the regional and get payed for by FIRST)

[jamapor]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

At the Arizona regional (or BAE...i can't remember) they did have a list in the background of the top seeded teams and then on the right side they had the teams that were left. it wasn't applicable to our team because we got picked by the 2nd place team, but i'm sure it was very useful in 2nd round picking for other teams

[abeD]

I also seem to remember there being a list of the top teams and who they picked along with the remaining teams on the big screen at the Florida Regional (most clearly remember this in 2002 at KSC). But this year at FL regional I don't think they had it and yes there were also problems with teams picking teams not in the regional or allready picked teams.

Originally Posted by jamapor

At the Arizona regional (or BAE...i can't remember) they did have a list in the background of the top seeded teams and then on the right side they had the teams that were left. it wasn't applicable to our team because we got picked by the 2nd place team, but i'm sure it was very useful in 2nd round picking for other teams

Same thing for the Pacific NW Regional.

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by [b

KenWittlief[/b]] ok - next year FIRST has to put 3 Zire PDAs in each KOPs, along with a scouting program, and a way to update all of them on the field during alliance selection from the IR beacons :^)

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

If I'm not mistaken they did have this in 2001 and 2002 not sure about 2003 and well pretty much non exsistant in 2004

[kevinw]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

ok - next year FIRST has to put 3 Zire PDAs in each KOPs, along with a scouting program, and a way to update all of them on the field during alliance selection from the IR beacons :^)

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

This was exactly the case at the Detroit regional also. When a couple of teams made it to the top 8 alliances due to intra-top 8 picking, the big screen proved helpful. They weren't quite expecting to be there or prepared with a list of teams that had been picked, etc., so they used the board to help them out. It was nice.

[Eric G]

Perhaps there needs to be some discussion about how to do selections... What do your teams do?

Our team (343) tries to build a list of our top 24 or so choices by Friday evening. It is reconsidered during Saturday. If we are fortunate enough to be in the top eight, the person on the field just has to look up into the stands. One of our people in the stands holds up a chalkboard with the recommended team number. The people on the field cannot keep up with such a complex thing as a shifting list on the fly... (However, that doesn't excuse the team from selecting team numbers that don't exist or from picking someone with a higher seed during the first round of picking.) Our people in the stands are marking off numbers and communicating with our person on the field. If you have a tentative list that is long enough, no matter how many of your top picks are taken, you still have a number ready to call out.

<my opinion>
As for the rankings throughout the day... I honestly don't believe that list is good for very much. Yes, it does provide the list of the top eight teams. However, I believe that some teams do well or poorly because of the teams with whom they are paired. Also, the team ranked 13 might look better than the 30th team on a list of rankings, but the rankings don't tell you if #13 is going to cooperate with you. A helpful #30 can be far better than a stubborned #13. The quality of an alliance partner is to be measured with far more information than just their previous productivity while randomly paired.
</my opinion>

I would enjoy hearing about what your teams do to prepare for alliance selections! Please share!!!

[Jack Jones]

Life is flawed. Your's is yet another example of FIRST imitaiting reality.

[Joe Ross]

One way to work around this would be to take a break between the end of matches and alliance selection. This way, teams have a chance to mull over the final rankings, and talk to the teams they are thinking about picking. I beleive FIRST did this one year, but I can't remember which.

However, it is much better now then it was in 1999. In 1999, you couldn't pick teams ranked in the top 8. Thus, if you fell from 5th to 13th in the last few matches and people didn't realize it, you'd have no chance. However, this year, if teams 1-4 had wanted to pick you, they could have picked you regardless of whether you were 5th or 13th. It would affect the 5th through 8th seeds, if they hadn't noticed it.

I can only think of once that one of my teams have felt "snubbed" in the alliance selection. That was nationals in 1999. We ranked in the mid 30's and I thought we were better then some of the teams that did get picked. However, two teams in close proximity in the pits to us (308 and 312) were also snubbed, and their robot's were even better then ours, so it made me feel better.

[BoyWithCape195]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

However, it is much better now then it was in 1999. In 1999, you couldn't pick teams ranked in the top 8. Thus, if you fell from 5th to 13th in the last few matches and people didn't realize it, you'd have no chance. However, this year, if teams 1-4 had wanted to pick you, they could have picked you regardless of whether you were 5th or 13th. It would affect the 5th through 8th seeds, if they hadn't noticed it..

No the problem was, we were 2nd, then we lost our last match which put us down to 12th, so only one team would have had us on their list. We were on teams in the top 8's list to accept if choosen by us, but they didnt realize untill after. I think the problem was, the showing of the rankings. They should announce the top eight, then have a break, so teams can then choose who they wanted. Picking would then not be based on assumption from seeing a team high all day and would force people to do more efficient scouting!

[David66]

It is not a flaw in FIRST. They use methods that are MUCh more fair than the NCAA, or other college organizations. They base everything on your overall record, as well as the strength of your opponents (hence being ranked by the number of points they score). The problem rather, is with scouting. When we get ready for an alliance selection we rank EVERY team that we might possibly want, starting with the number one seed. This way if this situation happens, or if we rise in the rankings, we know exactly who we want. THen, once we are on the field and our allianc captain has the bib on, we cross out picked teams/higher seeded teams, thatway NO ONE gets overlooked.

[BoyWithCape195]

Originally Posted by David66

It is not a flaw in FIRST. They use methods that are MUCh more fair than the NCAA, or other college organizations. They base everything on your overall record, as well as the strength of your opponents (hence being ranked by the number of points they score). The problem rather, is with scouting. When we get ready for an alliance selection we rank EVERY team that we might possibly want, starting with the number one seed. This way if this situation happens, or if we rise in the rankings, we know exactly who we want. THen, once we are on the field and our allianc captain has the bib on, we cross out picked teams/higher seeded teams, thatway NO ONE gets overlooked.

That is what every frirst team should do, but sadly, that is very complicated to get every team to do, and every team would not do this if some how you told every team

[Alex Cormier]

Other: please explain:

not accusing you of doing somehting wrong or somehting like that.
last year we were in 52nd firday goign into sat. that friday night we made flyers and went to kinkos and got them cut and gave like 3 or 4 to each team to get our team out there... so once the picking came about the 6th seed or so picked us and we won. oh btw after sat. we were in 12th place..

i say... you should have went around to teams and handed out flyers about your team and team's bot during the time b4 picking alliances and tell them what place your team is in...

my 2.56958605895 cents