2X Ball Into the Ball Release

[MikeDubreuil]

Attached is a pic of our drive team in operation in Annapolis. You get a pretty good shot of the ball release. For the purpose of this thread, let's assume that the ball release can support a 2x ball. Is it a good strategy, or even legal?

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Attached is a pic of our drive team in operation in Annapolis. You get a pretty good shot of the ball release. For the purpose of this thread, let's assume that the ball release can support a 2x ball. Is it a good strategy, or even legal?

The only rule I would be concerned with is The out of bounds rule that I previously mentioned.

It may also be deemed a safety issue as well. We very well don't want a robot to drop the ball over the wall and on to the drivers while trying to put it up there.

That is, if you COULD do it with the door being how it is.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

The only rule I would be concerned with is The out of bounds rule that I previously mentioned.

It may also be deemed a safety issue as well. We very well don't want a robot to drop the ball over the wall and on to the drivers while trying to put it up there.

That is, if you COULD do it with the door being how it is.

Right, you would be going out of bounds. But doesn't the rule allow you to go out of bounds? I think you are only disabled if your robot touches the ground or there is a safety concern.

[Cory]

A rule states that a robot may not cross the top of the 7' wall. I would assume that since the big ball is part of the robot, when being held by it (As I recall from an update/Q&A, I think), they would disable your robot for crossing the plane of the 7' wall.

Cory

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by Cory

A rule states that a robot may not cross the top of the 7' wall. I would assume that since the big ball is part of the robot, when being held by it (As I recall from an update/Q&A, I think), they would disable your robot for crossing the plane of the 7' wall.

Cory

And the dream dies. Thanks Cory and everyone else for your help. The second you think you have found a loophole in the rules, FIRST is already two steps ahead.

[Jones571]

You would also at least get a 10pt penalty for crossing the plane of the player station. If not disabled because that would be deliberate it happened to several teams in the Midwest regional I remember 45 doing it a few times.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Jones571

You would also at least get a 10pt penalty for crossing the plane of the player station. If not disabled because that would be deliberate it happened to sever teams in the Midwest regional I remember 45 doing it a few times.

Yeah if you break the plane of the 7ft wall with your robot or ball held by the robot, it's a 10pt penalty each time, not dq. We got that penalty twice in one match (within a few seconds of each other) due to a little craziness while driving in that area... No harm done...

[Jones571]

I was watching those matchs thanx to the live web cast and it didnt even look like your fault a few times u were pused while holding the ball up there

[10intheCrunch]

Looked more like the ball crossed the plane, not your actual arm--they changed the rules to say the yellow ball is only part of your robot in the cases of goaltending/assisting balls to goals. Hmmm....

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by 10intheCrunch

Looked more like the ball crossed the plane, not your actual arm--they changed the rules to say the yellow ball is only part of your robot in the cases of goaltending/assisting balls to goals. Hmmm....

You know, I believe you're right. If only the 2x ball crossed the wall plane, I don't think we should have gotten a penalty (2 actually). And, even if our robot was pushed so that we crossed the wall plane, the pushing robot should have gotten the penalty. We would have lost that match anyways by 10pts, even without 3 penalties against our alliance.

We also had a match where we were disabled due to the 2x ball in our arm touching the floor outside the field. Although the ref told us that was the reason we were disabled, I'm not sure that's right (2x not being part of our robot in that case). However, it probably would have been deemed unsafe anyways even though we probably could have gotten ourselves back up....
Oh well!! Life goes on...

Edit - Found out we actually did touch the carpet with our robot arm, but it was also a safety concern for the volunteer crew sitting right there.

[MikeDubreuil]

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

You know, I believe you're right. If only the 2x ball crossed the wall plane, I don't think we should have gotten a penalty (2 actually). And, even if our robot was pushed so that we crossed the wall plane, the pushing robot should have gotten the penalty. We would have lost that match anyways by 10pts, even without 3 penalties against our alliance.

We also had a match where we were disabled due to the 2x ball in our arm touching the floor outside the field. Although the ref told us that was the reason we were disabled, I'm not sure that's right (2x not being part of our robot in that case). However, it probably would have been deemed unsafe anyways even though we probably could have gotten ourselves back up....
Oh well!! Life goes on...

Hmm... I think FIRST should set a presedence on the ball holding situation. There shouldn't be cases. Either the ball is or is not a part of your robot. Period.

My reccomendation would be that the ball is not part of the robot. I can't even think of a situation where it would make sense to call the ball a part of a robot.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Hmm... I think FIRST should set a presedence on the ball holding situation. There shouldn't be cases. Either the ball is or is not a part of your robot. Period.

My reccomendation would be that the ball is not part of the robot. I can't even think of a situation where it would make sense to call the ball a part of a robot.

In a sense, yes. But I think they are right to limit the amount of "blocking" of things that you can do in a game. You can already block both chutes with goals. But if they don't call the 2x ball part of the robot in goaltending, then all we would have to do is grab a 2x ball and hold it over the opponents stationary or mobile goal all day long. That would be boring... I don't know.. I'm sure there's many opinions.. but that's the way it is. We'll just have to make sure to ask the judges at nationals what they say about the rule..

[Heretic121]

Originally Posted by Cory

A rule states that a robot may not cross the top of the 7' wall. I would assume that since the big ball is part of the robot, when being held by it (As I recall from an update/Q&A, I think), they would disable your robot for crossing the plane of the 7' wall.

Cory

this is true, but with our robot, we kinda spit the ball out of our arm, so we can shoot it out while completly in the field along with the 2x ball still in our arm...

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Heretic121

this is true, but with our robot, we kinda spit the ball out of our arm, so we can shoot it out while completly in the field along with the 2x ball still in our arm...

Well, we were not disabled. I read the rule as - if you're robot crosses the wall plane (ball chute, or above wall) it's a 10pt penalty. You are not disabled. It's not necessarily deliberate, especially if you're being pushed with a ball up in the air. You will be disabled if your robot touches the floor outside the playing field. However, the point was brought up that the 2x ball is only part of your robot in the case of goaltending. So, I'm looking for an update or rule that says otherwise, because I haven't seen it say 2x ball is part of the robot always.

Capping an opponents goal is completely legal to do, to prevent them from scoring balls. However, if your robot is still holding that ball and they shoot, bounces off the 2x you hold, it's goaltending. If you're fast enough to cap it before they can shoot, then it's perfectly legal. But you can't just hold the ball over the goal. I haven't seen many people do it, because the risk of goaltending is pretty high for the amount of time it usually takes for someone to cap anothers goal successfully.

This is sorta getting off topic of the original thread though. All the rules/penalties have been discussed earlier, and I think they're pretty well written now in the updated version of the rules. I want to make sure at nationals about the rule of 2x ball being part of the robot.

[Rob Colatutto]

The out of bounds rule says if your robot has to put force on something outside the playing field to return to play it will be disabled. Its pretty much reffering to landing on the carpet outside the field or getting a hook stuck on the railing/steel cable, etc...
The time it would take you to balance the ball up there is probably not even worth it, why not just push the ball deep into a goal if you want it not to be used?

A rule states that a robot may not cross the top of the 7' wall. I would assume that since the big ball is part of the robot, when being held by it (As I recall from an update/Q&A, I think), they would disable your robot for crossing the plane of the 7' wall.

The ball is an extension of the robot when its being held, so according to that you would be disabled.