Go to Post why does everyone think im so violent? - Kim Masi [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Unhappy Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik
I've spent some time discussing match scheduling with FIRST this season. The algorithm does have a provision which tries to place older teams with younger teams. It's not always possible, but an attempt is made.
What? I thought partner and opposition assignment was completely random! This makes certain things very unfair. As you said, FIRST makes an "attempt" to put veterans w/ rookies. That means sometimes they can't, and some rookies get ripped off.

For three years I've been under the assumption that all partner and opponent assignments are random. Someone, clarify!!!

[edit]If you can, specifiy a specific rule in the manual or a quote from a official FIRST person.[/edit]

Last edited by SilverStar : 29-03-2004 at 21:56.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:14
Steve W Steve W is offline
Grow Up? Why?
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Toronto,Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,523
Steve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

I believe (note not sure) that the algorithum randomly mixes up all team numbers and then from that senerio mixes again for matches. From what I have had explained to me, there is no matching going on. I will try to clarify at the Canadian Regional this week.

Edit- another note is that it would not be unfair to rookie teams but maybe unfair to veteran teams as there are always more vets than rookies. After seeing the rookies at Philadelphia , I think I would have wanted them as my alliance partner. Great job by rookie teams this year.
__________________
We do not stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing.

Last edited by Steve W : 29-03-2004 at 21:25. Reason: More thoughts.
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:18
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Karthik, can you give any specifics on what you were talking about?
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:22
srjjs's Avatar
srjjs srjjs is offline
Slightly Rehabilitated
AKA: Larry Wang
#0840 (Aragon Robotics Team)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: UCB, Berkeley
Posts: 485
srjjs will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to srjjs
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Having it completely random would not be a good thing. That would lead to situations such as having to play two consecutive matches occuring, which would be very difficult for most teams. Match assignment is done as fairly as possible, but there are just so many things to take into account that it will never be oerfect.
__________________
2004:
SVR Imagery Award
SVR Semifinalists with 473 and 687

RIP Andrew Dang
3/22/2004
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:30
Jay H 237 Jay H 237 is offline
Down at the railroad
AKA: Jason Hartmann
FRC #0237 (Black Magic)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Watertown,CT
Posts: 3,331
Jay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond reputeJay H 237 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Jay H 237
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by srjjs
Having it completely random would not be a good thing. That would lead to situations such as having to play two consecutive matches occuring, which would be very difficult for most teams. Match assignment is done as fairly as possible, but there are just so many things to take into account that it will never be oerfect.
Absolutely.

Is there anyone in CD land that works/volunteers for FIRST who can shed some light or give us some insight on exactly how they set up the matches and what, if anything, is taken into account when the matches are set up.
__________________
2006 Maryland Delphi "Driving Tomorrow's Technology" award
2006 Connecticut General Motor's Industrial Design award
2005 Finalists-----------New Jersey (along with our alliances again, 56 & 303)
2005 WINNERS of the Radio Shack Innovation in Control Award (not once, but twice! )
2004 WINNERS ------ Johnson & Johnson Mid-Atlantic Regional (also thanks to our alliances 56 & 303)
2004 General Motors Industrial Design Award Winners
2004 Archimedes Quarterfinalists (also thanks to our alliances 121 & 386)

NEMO _________ NonEngineering Mentor Organization
"Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot!" - author unknown
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:31
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by srjjs
Having it completely random would not be a good thing. That would lead to situations such as having to play two consecutive matches occuring, which would be very difficult for most teams. Match assignment is done as fairly as possible, but there are just so many things to take into account that it will never be oerfect.
I don't agree with this, but anyway.

Can anyone cite a specific rule from the manual that says how matches are created?
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:33
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

it seemed to me that almost all of the teams we were allied with, we were also opposted to in later matches

was that only a cooincidence for our team? it sure seemed odd, out of 60 teams present
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:36
Melissa Nute's Avatar
Melissa Nute Melissa Nute is offline
I like my hammer...
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 1,246
Melissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Melissa Nute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
it seemed to me that almost all of the teams we were allied with, we were also opposted to in later matches

was that only a cooincidence for our team? it sure seemed odd, out of 60 teams present
That happened a lot to my team at our regional also. Its been happening like that always I thought.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:40
IMDWalrus's Avatar
IMDWalrus IMDWalrus is offline
This is a line...
AKA: Paul
FRC #0818 (Genesis '02)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 617
IMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to beholdIMDWalrus is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to IMDWalrus
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meli W.
That happened a lot to my team at our regional also. Its been happening like that always I thought.
It works like this for all teams, from what I've seen. Unfortuately, logic dictates that it'll continue to be this way.

Taken from an older post of mine...

Quote:
FIRST wants everyone to have a (more or less) equal amount of time between matches, right? Say you have 45 minutes between your last match and your next match...guess who else has had 45 minutes between those matches? That's right...the teams you just finished playing with / against. The individual alliance pairings might have changed, but the robots are still the same.

If FIRST did move to a more randomized schedule, without as much of a concern for time between matches, people would complain about not having enough time to fix up their robot. It's a lose-lose situation, unfortunately.
I honestly don't think that FIRST has found a better system; if they had, we'd probably be using it by now.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:43
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

I dont see a consistant amount of time between ALL matches to be an issue - if you have 20 minutes between two matches then 90 until your next one, it would let you tackle some bigger fixes on your bot - 45 minutes is not much time to tear something apart and put it back together

I would rather have a chance to play with/against a broader selection of teams.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:44
Steve W Steve W is offline
Grow Up? Why?
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Toronto,Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,523
Steve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond reputeSteve W has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Built into the algorithum is a time factor that allows certain "rests" between matches. Because certain teams all start in the same time frame then they will probabbly advance in the algorithum equally. This is unofficial and hearsay from people on the field that are involved.
__________________
We do not stop playing because we grow old;
we grow old because we stop playing.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:44
LauraN's Avatar
LauraN LauraN is offline
Holder of the Missile Keys
FRC #0097 (RoboRuminants)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 96
LauraN is a splendid one to beholdLauraN is a splendid one to beholdLauraN is a splendid one to beholdLauraN is a splendid one to beholdLauraN is a splendid one to beholdLauraN is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via AIM to LauraN
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
it seemed to me that almost all of the teams we were allied with, we were also opposted to in later matches

was that only a cooincidence for our team? it sure seemed odd, out of 60 teams present
That's definitely happened for us, and I just now had a flash of brillance and figured out why.

Edit: see IMDWalrus's post. Beat me to it. Oh well. At least I had a proud moment when I figured it out myself. =)

You're likely to get paired with teams you've just played with because of the time issue. Of course, you may be able to mix in some teams from the matches right before or after your original match. But for the most part you're with that particular group.

Then your next match you may play with a team that played right before or after your second match. So you'll get some switching that way, but between any 2 consecutive matches there's bound to be some overlap.

I think Ken has a point, you don't need consistent time between matches. But I think (I don't really know, I'm not good at this stuff) that that would make it even more complicated to schedule, wouldn't it?

Just my thoughts.
__________________
-Laura Nicholson
Team 97 (RoboRuminants) Mentor
Team 30 (FURY) Alumna

Last edited by LauraN : 29-03-2004 at 22:01. Reason: repeated info
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:47
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Wait... let's return to the original intent of this thread...

Having a rest time is fine... but that does not say anything about purposely putting veterans with rookies as partners.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:50
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

maybe putting 4 veteran teams in the same match would be too boring? they would bash each other to pieces in auton mode, then nothing would happen for the remaining 1:45?

some weird logic along those lines?
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2004, 21:52
Melissa Nute's Avatar
Melissa Nute Melissa Nute is offline
I like my hammer...
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, FL
Posts: 1,246
Melissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond reputeMelissa Nute has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Melissa Nute
Re: Rigged partner assignments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
maybe putting 4 veteran teams in the same match would be too boring? they would bash each other to pieces in auton mode, then nothing would happen for the remaining 1:45?

some weird logic along those lines?
But putting 4 veteran teams in the same match happens a lot. Sometimes the bashing makes it all the more fun ;-)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Division assignments now available in Team 340 database archiver 2001 13 24-06-2002 03:05
about picking up your alliance partner archiver 2000 1 23-06-2002 22:34
Pit Area Assignments greenz_gurl15 Championship Event 5 20-04-2002 13:44
254 The Best Partner in FIRST sfield Regional Competitions 5 03-04-2002 23:23


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:39.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi