Where's the defense this year?

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally Posted by David Bridge

There were a lot of teams who tried to defend against 177 scoring small balls in the Philly finals. All day friday and into thursday we had been racking up small ball points (up to 90 in a round where our partner did not work at all) without once having the goal capped. We went up against some pretty fierce hangers in the eliminations (most notably 341) who tried to prevent us from getting the small balls. The only problem was that we were so efficient with them that we would score our points, then procede to keep the team which had previously been defending us from hanging with our beefy drive train (thanks to 45)

177 was just insane, like I said in a previous thread we couldn't ignore them or they would rack up 100 points with balls alone... so we pushed both goals in their ball chute and hit them just as the balls fell.. it worked until we went to hang and realized while we were tussling with 177 our hook fell off :/, so we went and sucked up some balls... Their nice drivetrain was able to dislodge the mobile goal, and both of us filled up our goals until the buzzer. two penalties did us in, and we lost 60-70, but I'm proud to say we lost to the winning alliance of the Philadelphia Regional, because nobody could stop them from delivering all those balls.

What amazed me most was 177's drivetrain. I would've thought that with two omniwheels they wouldn't be strong, but they were pushing around other robots like rag dolls during the rest of the playoffs. Just wait until they get their hook working.. scary thought, eh?

[Koko Ed]

We got defensed.

Big time.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

This probably isnt the best place to ask this, but is there a rul that says you cannot pick a team up off the bar and move them?

[KenWittlief]

pick them up?

there was a match at buckeye, I think 340 was on the bar and another team hooked on, and their bot could move sideways on the bar - and they were trying to push 340 sideways, so they let themselves back down with their wheels on the platform and pushed back

and the other team pushed backed again

and 340 pushed them right off the end of the bar.

sad part is, for all the other matches I saw 340 was happy to get on the bar and mind its own business - the other team started the shoving match

and lost.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

pick them up?

there was a match at buckeye, I think 340 was on the bar and another team hooked on, and their bot could move sideways on the bar - and they were trying to push 340 sideways, so they let themselves back down with their wheels on the platform and pushed back

and the other team pushed backed again

and 340 pushed them right off the end of the bar.

sad part is, for all the other matches I saw 340 was happy to get on the bar and mind its own business - the other team started the shoving match

and lost.

I remember 279 and 378 were battling to get on the bar and both hooked on and 279 did that way cool clamshell thing it does and toppled 378 right over off the bar.

[rachakate]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

pick them up?

there was a match at buckeye, I think 340 was on the bar and another team hooked on, and their bot could move sideways on the bar - and they were trying to push 340 sideways, so they let themselves back down with their wheels on the platform and pushed back

and the other team pushed backed again

and 340 pushed them right off the end of the bar.

sad part is, for all the other matches I saw 340 was happy to get on the bar and mind its own business - the other team started the shoving match

and lost.

Actually, we dropped down to the platform to try and push back, and then when we raised ourselves up, 306 was above us. When we pulled up, they came up with us. They had a solid arm, so when they came up, their hook was above the bar, and they fell off.

We hung in every single round. We'd deliver our hook and then play king of the platform. Seemed to work out well.

[ngreen]

I've seen this game from the beginning as the winning teams will be the one that uses the alliances to the best ability. Sometimes you will have subpar offensive robots working with you that could best be utilized in defense. No, you won't get amazingly high scores but you won't lose either. And a win is a win in my book.

From watching regional, specifically the St. Louis Regional, I've seen times where one of the alliances was better used at stopping the other from scoring as many points while the other team scored points. More than anything I am super impressed by these team that do take on the defensive role and those are the kind of team that I would love to have on my alliance. To become that team you have to forget your pride and do what is best for the alliance. I kind of find the defensive team like this sexy because it makes the game exciting too.

Too say you can play a pure offensive game and do well is true (take for example the KC Chiefs) but it won't win you championships. Defense is a extremely potent tool when utilized to the right extent in this game. No alliance can be purely defensive and expect to do well. But the right mix of these can make for great alliances and great matches.

Trying to scare people from playing defense is just wrong and boring and limits who can compete to win.

As to what is better, who knows. I would love a match between a good offensive alliance and a good offensive team with a good defensive team.

[KenWittlief]

I dont think there is anything wrong with playing defensively in the elimination rounds, as long as you are not mixing it up to the point where your bot gets damaged, or you forget that you MUST score points yourself to win

but in the qualifying matches focusing on defense is a mistake -it will knock you down in the rankings

in general I have seen more teams playing defensively in the elim rounds - which indicates that most teams understand all this

I think the fact that the national high score (220) happened during a quarterfinal at buckeye only shows that 4 exceptional bots were on the field in that match - all 4 bots were on the bar, and small balls were scored and goals were capped.

but teams are being defensive in the playoffs.

[Eric Bareiss]

I agree with John that you have to know when you are beat offensively. Sometimes you just go against teams that can score more points than you. I do not agree that you shouldn't play defense in qualification. I think it comes down to picking your battles well.

Too many teams are going out onto the field just expecting to score as many points as they can and win. Well when you are playing against an alliance who can score 200+ points and your alliance can barely break 150, it's time to play some defense. Most teams score FAR less points if you just get in their way a little.

In AZ team 60 was scoring 100+ points per match on their own. Team 1011 had a simple swerve drive robot. 1011 stuck on 60 the whole match, they kept them from hearding, they kept them from capping and they kept them hanging. Could 1011 have outscored 60? NO WAY! but they stopped them from scoring a ton of points, and showed other teams that they had the ability to stop big scorers (they got picked by the second alliance).

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by Eric Bareiss

In AZ team 60 was scoring 100+ points per match on their own. Team 1011 had a simple swerve drive robot. 1011 stuck on 60 the whole match, they kept them from hearding, they kept them from capping and they kept them hanging. Could 1011 have outscored 60? NO WAY! but they stopped them from scoring a ton of points, and showed other teams that they had the ability to stop big scorers (they got picked by the second alliance).

I have to completely agree with Eric and John in the sense that you have to pick your battles wisely. There are always going to be bots out there that are designed efficiently, run like a dream, dominate every match in their sight, etc. For some teams, if they aren't big scorers or very reliable (or even if they just think it's within their best interests), defense could possibly be the way to go. Especially if you have a reliable partner who could score... what would be stopping you? Fear of not having an entertaining match for the audience?

Or what about teams that show off what they can do in the qualifications at the expense of the match? The '2x the loser's score' rule was disregarded at times so that teams could show their stuff... go out there and show how effectively they could block or do what they did best. A lot of times, capabilities can't be assumed - strut your stuff and don't let rankings matter.

There is no 'better' way to go. This argument, in some ways, is a bit out of hand and a bit offensive. Every match isn't determinable by simply offense or defense by any means - it's a combination of factors. Reliability of robots, skill of drivers, limitations of robots, timing, partners, opposing teams, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. You can attempt to simplify matches into black and white, but offense will get you nowhere if an arm falls off while capping; defense won't win the game if you aren't very good at it.

Strategy is strategy. That's why it exists, and that's why it's used match after match. Play the game for what it is, don't oversimplify it.

[ngreen]

Yeah... I remember a particular match at SLR where I think it was the prank monkeys..could be wrong.. got in a battle to stop one of the better hangers from making it to the bar. Whatever team that was..still thinking prank monkeys..kept them from getting to the platform the whole match and the alliance won because of that.

Defense gives every team to compete and levels out the playing field for teams with less resources. If you read at least part of the archived thread mentioned earlier, especially Jason and Bill's parts you will see this. When there is no defense the best robot with the most resources win.

BTW- they said build robust. They expected defense win they came up with this game. The lack of offense last year has left some weary about defense but FIRST can't progress in its goals without the excitement that defense brings to this competition.

Also, I in no way support team intentionally tipping, ramming, entangling, or damagin other. That has been outrageous at point this year and I personally think the refs should do more to get rid of these actions.

And to stay on everyone's good side. I appreciate everything all the volunteers, including refs, do for us. You all should be proud of the jobs you have done and please come back next year.

[Kit Gerhart]

Basically, we have "played to win" this year, and let the points fall where they may. If you end up 10-0-0, or 9-1-0 in the Q matches, you are going to be in good shape, even if your opponents' ave score is zero. Our primary offence has been to hang every match, and we have used various bits of defense to reduce ball scoring and hanging by our opponents. So far, though, we have not faced alliances capable of scoring 200+ points in a match, as will be the case at Atlanta.

It is now going to be a more complex thing to come up with a winning strategy, when we will start seeing super ball scorers. When 210 and 220 points are scored, as in some matches at Cleveland and Evanston, two robots hanging and a few balls in an uncapped goal obviously isn't going to get it. If two robots like our very good hanger, but without ball collecting capability, are on the same alliance, we will have to have a very offensive defense to beat teams who can score and cap 15 balls and whose partner can hang.

[Yan Wang]

Originally Posted by ToMMan b182

This probably isnt the best place to ask this, but is there a rul that says you cannot pick a team up off the bar and move them?

There is a rule that I am too lazy to go look up that says that your robot may not INTENTIONALLY go and pick up, flip, impale, burn other robots, etc. You get the gist of the rule.

[J Flex 188]

though you are allowed to try and knock robots off the bar with 5 pt ball shots.

Originally Posted by Yan Wang

There is a rule that I am too lazy to go look up that says that your robot may not INTENTIONALLY go and pick up, flip, impale, burn other robots, etc. You get the gist of the rule.

[OneAngryDaisy]

along this topic (although it may be a little off-track) I noticed more and more teams are modfiying their hook to make it more foolproof. At chesapeake very few teams had to really try to get their hook off, but at Philly many had to stick poles up to remove their hook. I know we, for one, had more trouble getting it off than on. It took a guy on a ladder 5 minutes to get it down, but if it took him that long I guess we aren't coming down anytime during competition