National Championship or National Chairman's

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Jessica Boucher

Even though I believe in the Chairman's Award, I find it to be too corrupt. And although I like how it forces the FIRST market to constanly change and revamp itself, I don't like the reprocussions of that reinvention.

I'd much prefer a National Championship. It's easier to explain on your part, and on your sponsors part.

Corrupt?
How so?

[Marygrace]

Originally Posted by collin234

i voted for Chairman's. i find it very easy to explain. use pro sports. does the best football team win every year? no. if they did...the colts would win at least once the Chairman's doesn't go to the team who gets lucky (it takes luck to win...you can't deny it) it goes to the team who helps engineering the most in their community

could you tell me (through pm/e-mail (collinfultz@att.net) is fine if you don't want to post on CD the corruption? i'm wondering what I don't know and how it may be hurting me. thanks!

I second that, I dont see any problems with Chairmans Award...in fact, i cant IMAGINE any problems with the Chairmans Award.

[Jessica Boucher]

Oy! Okay, okay...I'll explain. And please, I know that some of my viewpoints are...different than the normal FIRSTer, to say the least. That does not mean that they are not valid. Just because my opinion is different does not mean that I don't have valid, unique skills to bring to the program to make it better, and also does not mean that my viewpoints would skew my willingness to help FIRST if it contradicts what FIRST wants to do with itself. It's just how I feel, and I am trying to discuss my viewpoint in a gracious and professional manner...and I hope your responses are the same.

First of all, I like the idea of the Chairman's award itself. I think that we should be striving for something higher than a winning robot, since the point of the organization is to change the culture, not to build the best robot.

I also like how FIRST is running the Chairman's logistically now, with regional chairman's. I feel that this allows the judges to give more attention to an award of such importance. I'm also not saying that FIRST itself is corrupt. I think the judges do a fine job, and in having regional Chairmans before national Chairmans, it reinforces the judges relationship by forcing them to rely on the opinions of dozens of judges from around the nation.

That said, I think that the teams are corrupt in how they go about obtaining this award. Think back at many regional Chairmans winners, national finalists and national winners...and even to teams that stuck out in your mind along the years but never made the cut. How many of the extraneous-to-the-robot programs that they created and used in the award submission are still going today? I've been really impressed with how these winning and finalist teams have put their teams together and created innovative ways of making the competition, as well as the culture of FIRST, better...and to see these extraneous programs die after the season (regardless as to whether the team won or not) really disappoints me. Why? Just because the season is over doesn't mean the program isnt useful anymore. A need was found, a team filled that need (which is great), but to see that need reopen because the season is over is frustrating, because I feel like nothing has been gained. I don't want to name teams because I don't want to point fingers.

I also feel that impact can't be quantified in all cases. If FIRST's existence caused a 50% increase in graduates going to college, thats great, that's a valid point that absolutley should be used. But to say that the impact is greater because a FRC team has a lot of FLL teams...that seems sketchy to me. Just because the FLL team exists doesn't mean that it's always 100% effective in inspiring students, and doesn't mean that the team wasn't already going to pick up those same students once they hit high school. And it also doesn't mean by adding a bunch of FLL teams that the team is assimilating FIRST's vision to their community in the fashion that will yield an optimum effect. The team should analyse their community and create something innovative that will be the best for them - not just something that FIRST is suggesting.

Note: And I'm not just picking on FLL...there are other programs that I feel are viewed as quantitatively scored that should rather be scored qualitatively.

In short, I feel like a lot of FIRST's culture and community wouldn't be here without the Chairman's award...and I am grateful for that. But, when I see great culture-adding programs being created for the sake of winning an award - which is pretty apparent when it dies after the season is over - it upsets me, because I can't tell if they were genuinely doing it to make FIRST better, or to make their team look better. I think that we are a strong and smart enough community that we can move beyond doing things for our own team and indirectly for FIRST and we can move to doing things for FIRST. I hope that one day these culture-adding programs won't be seen as extraneous...they'll be seen as essential as the robot itself.

Now, I know I've heard a lot of complaints about how when someone posts something contravercial that they feel afterwards because of the backlash that they shouldn't have posted at all. So, I ask that you wait 30 minutes before you answer to anything directly related to what I say in this post - like how professors demand you wait 24 hours after an exam is handed back before questions can be asked. I think this will force posters to think logically and not defensively, so please abide by this, for both our sakes, and I eagerly await your responses.

[Marygrace]

I am not defensive, i promise you. Just curious to hear another point of you. You have valid points, I agree, some teams strive for Chairmans Award, then once they get it, they think that its over. I dont think that that makes the award corrupt, some teams need to rethink their priorities.

Of course there are always going to be some teams strving for their own gain. Its human nature, there is nothing we can do about that. And you know what? This is just another way FIRST emulates life. Short on time, money, and their are ppl in the world that do things for their personal gain, we just have to ask ourselves how we are going to respond to those people.

I apreciate the alternative point of you, makes ya think, how many teams truly do this for FIRST, science and technology, or just to get their own attention?

Not all teams fully understand the point of FIRST and its sad, they arent on Chief Delphi experiencing the full FIRST community. Maybe never hearing of this concept that is well known here on CD, Gracious Profesionalism. They get competitive.

For the teams that do only do it for their personal gain and then fade, its disappointing yes, but hopefully they have inspired someone a long the way. Whether during one of their exhibitions they inspire a child, or just a member on the team. Every person counts, even if the team does fade, they affected someone somehow, and it gives other teams a chance to step in.

Lets call it the Robotics Circle of Life. When one team "dies" another is "born". Continuing to inspire the nation, and soon to be the world.

[10intheCrunch]

Jessica,

I thought that Chairman's was the long-haul award, the award for the teams that do exactly what you say isn't happening--keep sustained programs alive and provide aid to the FIRST community throughout their history. You can't win the Chairman's just because of one year--you have to build to it and really show that you're keeping on.

I'll use my team as an example because I don't really know that much about other team's efforts (sorry). We spent the money that would have gone to another regional on a machine trailer for the regionals to have machine shop support, and have helped a lot of teams stay operation at competitions. We brought it last year, this year, and will continue to take it to regionals to help out.

Mentoring teams can be ephermal, you are right, though. I agree that teams should spend a real amount of time mentoring a team, not just mentoring as many as possible and adding them to the list. Last year we mentored Milpitas (1120), and two weeks ago we played them in the finals in Sacramento. That's pretty worthwhile.

You could very well be right; I haven't been around FIRST for nearly as long as you. The judges at a regional have to pick someone, and it may be true that sometimes they just pick the team with the longest list of "accomplisments." Hopefully, though, the teams that really do add to the community will be picked at their regionals, and the national judges will find the real sustainable programs for the national award.

Even still, I'd prefer a Championship.

OK time for me to step in and throw my 2 cents into the circle...


I really like the chairmans award and what it stands for. My beef really isn't about the award itself, but how certain teams/individuals try to achieve this honor. There are still quite a few teams/individuals that mean good, but do the award for the wrong reasons. Too many times I have heard "What can we do this year to help us win the chairmans award" Almost everyone in FIRST is guilty of that, including myself. Dean's ultimate goal for FIRST is exactly what the chairmans award stands for, but I don't think he intended for the chairmans award to become a bribe. In many cases thats what its turning into. Nobody can deny that. So the long and the short of it, the chairmans award is a great idea, but it is often abused and there are many people out there that still do it for the wrong reason. Ask yourself, if the chairmans award is taken out of the picture, would you still do your charity work, demos, inter-team building that occurs now? For many of us, yes, but overall the number of teams that participate would drop because that extra incentive to do these good deeds and better society is gone.

Just as Jessica requested, before you people go blasting my views take some time to think what I said. Overall after thinking about it, I hope my words can give you a better reason to better society and help spread the message of FIRST without the chairmans award in the back of your mind.

Don't do it because you have to or someone else wants you to do it, do it because you realize you can make a difference.

On that note, I go

D.J.

[Koko Ed]

To play devil's advocate the same could be said about the championship. The big contraversies that happen here on Cheifdelphi are because teams do blatant things to gain an advatage on the field. From whether the robots are student built or engineer built to rumors of teams trying to get around FIRST's rules by doing such things as weighing robots with a hollow battery or using practice robots at competitions and then taking the parts off and putting them on the 1st robot.

I think the main culprit is the need to get awards in general. At Buckeye last weekend we cheered out butts off all day long and we're dissapointed, even hurt when 808 won the Spirit award but not winning the award did not effect our overall attitide. The team continued to scream, yell, dance and have fun for sake of fun. The prospect of an award did not dictate our attitude. What speaks more about you as a person is not how you win but how you lose. It's real easy to be graciously professional and viewed as great when you are sweeping up awards left and right and place on a pedastal everywhere you go. But what about the teams that don't quite get over the hump?

We have never won a competition in 13 years of existence and I'm not going to lie and say that we don't want to but I honestly take more pride in winning awards like team spirit, sportmanship, judges award and chairman's because that's judging the entire team at the competition. The on field stuff is often dependent in how good your strategyn or driver is. That's just a handful of people on the team, most of the time. The rest of the team is just spectators.We honestly do care more about having our kids inspired and we are constantly battling with ourselves do we want a competive team or do we want kids inspired and we always choose the latter. Or infrastructure is to require our kids to do, at least, one year on the robot and they are encouraged to try all aspects of the team so they get the full FIRST experiecne.

I think too many teams veiw thier season a sucess or failure on how amny awards they have compiled that year and if they got none then it was a failure when that is not the case at all. FIRST is privlidge that I am glad to be a part of and any award we recieve is a blessing to be cherish not an expectation to be agonized over.

[duckyday]

wow.. interesting questions.. this is a topic i have considered myself with us running for chairman's this year... it is weird because this year we did a lot with the community and the team... it is only our third year and a lot of the original core group is graduating, so i think we wanted it to be special for them...everytime we did something, in the back of our minds the chairman's award team was thinking "will this help us get the award?", and every once in a while we suggested something to the team to help us be a more qualified team... it carried more weight coming from us...

The chairman's award shows a team straight off how important it is to embrace gracious professionalism and your community... when a team understands what the chairman's award is about, they understand the spirit of FIRST... this is something that beyond a doubt is a benifit of the chairmans...

You have to wonder if the award is becoming a bribe for a team to embrace that spirit, but i think it is pretty obvious when a team does something for no other reason that to get the chairman's award. if my team, with our 1 lego league team and lack of mentorship of other first teams, both of which are traditionally valued by the chairman's award judges, can win at our regional over teams who had many more of those things, I think you have to admit that the award works the way it is supposed to.

We put a lot of effort into winning the chairman's award, but we also put a lot of effort into being a good team... i think the seniors will go off with the memory of that and that the freshman will continue with the memory of that and carry it into the next few years...

Winning the regional chairman's rocked on every level... it let our entire team see how important our other activites are and made some of the more engineering driven members recognize the value of the chairmans and marketing teams. To watch our team come together with this award and our pursuit of it, was so important and amazing that i can't help but think it is an incredibly powerful award.

Were our team to win a Regional Championship that would be great too, but that would almost be just another subteam winning something... like the software group getting Leadership in Control, or the Marketing team getting the imagery award... The chairmans involved our entire team, in all the activities and presentations we did this year and in the history of the team.. it involved both past and present members and mentors... and we all are better for having been involved with it.

It is FIRST's most prestigeous award, and for me there is no question that it deserves to be...

[ngreen]

I think the chairman's is a more worthwhile award.. Is is more exciting? Probably not.

Winning the chairman's award means your team has made it in FIRST. The award means very little but the journey you took to it means everything.

Championships are more exciting because it happens so fast. Teams can become champions after having a hard Friday. Or you can make a run at it with little experience. My team was ranked 1 in Archimedes until our last match and you know the teams that came out of there. Given a little luck and minus a tip and we could have been competing for the championship.

But we are even on the same level as some of the chairman's winners. Maybe a couple more years and we will be.

[Greg Mills]

I think the Chairman's Award is the top. Every competition we have ever won or lost was, in the end, a result of luck. Alot of hard work, a good robot, lots of practice, but in the end , either good or bad luck. The Chairman's Award, on the other hand, is a great recognition of the quality of the program. I have always told everyone that the Chairman's Award is not something to try to win - you build the best program you can and then let it be judged. Never do something just for the sake of an award.

I have always been more impressed with any award than with winning a competition. I have some medals from over the years but the awards are sweeter.

I am most proud of the enduring program we have. Five National Chairman's Award Finalist (in the old days), One National Chairman's Award, and one Regional Chairman's award, since '96.

[Michael R. Lee]

Competitions are the result of whether you got lucky or not. In 2002, my High School team was lucky to go on to win in our division, muchless placing as Finalists. 311 picked us, the reason.... we beat them at KSC that year and had a good bot that they wanted then. But liek to pick, some teams jsut get lucky on who they are allied with.

Chairman's Award shows in most cases that here is a team who is an example of FIRST values and ideas, a memebr of the community, etc.... yeah medals and the other awards are nice but really the only teams that have any sort of "bragging rights" from year to year are Chairman's Award winners. If you win a competition, its only good until next season. And who wouldn't like to go to championship every year with out worrying to qualify?

[gsensel]

I have to say Chairman's, I know I am one sided because it is the one of the few National awards I didn't win. But in my eyes it is still one of the most prestigious awards you can win.

[MOEmaniac]

I would perfer the National Chairman's Award because if u win the Chairmans you can go to Nationals every year for ever and it is the highest award a FIRST team can recieve.

and plus my team has already one the National Championship

[ah27]

Originally Posted by MOEmaniac

I would perfer the National Chairman's Award because if u win the Chairmans you can go to Nationals every year for ever and it is the highest award a FIRST team can recieve.

Exactly, my opinion too.

[ah27]

Also, to sum up my thoughts, from what i am reading, you guys are treating Chairman's too much like an award you can win. It is not so much as an award as an honor. Chairman's Award points out that your team is the team to be. You team is FIRST, it embodies all the spirit, the ideas, everything that is FIRST. Team 27 recieved chairman's at Great lakes Regional, and I would VERY MUCH rather recieve it at nationals than win the tournament. Not only would be invited back every year, but we would be the team that all the rookies (and veterans) should strive to emulate. And if we do win, we will still maintain all of our values, because what type of role-model would we be if we stopped being one?