YMTC: Bluabot sits on Redabot

[Winged Globe]

I'm not sure if this one is a stumper as much as it is unpleasant to score by the rules of the game.

HANGING – A ROBOT is considered HANGING from the Pull-Up Bar if it is directly SUPPORTED by the horizontal bar and is not touching the carpet, platforms, or goals.

SUPPORTED – If the “supporting object” is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.

<G27> A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10 seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count starts over. If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for each violation.

As the rules are written, Redabot cannot classify as hanging because it does not meet the second point (it *is* touching the platform). This renders the first point (directly supported by the horizontal bar) moot, because the definition of supported says the robot would not be hanging if the supporting object was removed, and Redabot never met the second point of hanging. Hence, Bluabot doesn't come into account. The supported clause is circular and a bit confusing, but touching the platform is clearly not allowed to be hanging.

Bluabot is hanging because it is not touching the ground, it would remain hanging with Redabot removed (not supported by Redabot), and it would not remain hanging (off the ground) with the horizontal bar removed.

The rules as is only apply to pinning while on the carpet, so strictly speaking, pinning penalties do not apply.

And if it is modified to apply on any field ground (platform and carpet), it would depend on whether Redabot could have moved away, including if Redabot was able to lower itself off the bar and drive away. If so, no penalties on Bluabot, as Redabot's movement was not inhibited. However, if Redabot cannot lower itself or move reasonably in any direction whatsoever, warnings and penalties on Bluabot, the number of penalties as per precedence on the pinning rule.

[KenWittlief]

if the blue bot is keeping the red bot from pulling itself up, it MUST be supporting some of its weight on the red bot, it could not possible be preventing the red bot from ascending if most of its weight were not supported by it

and the red is clearly supported by its wheels

so neither are entirely supported by the bar

neither are hanging

BTW - this would be easy to determine - bluebots cables or hook arm would be loose on the bar, or slack, it its applying force to the redbot

[Joshua May]

According to the rules, Bluabot IS hanging, and Redabot is not. However, I would penalize Bluabot for pinning. Also, Bluabot is technically not pinning, while they are inhibiting the movement of Redabot, Rule <G27> clearly states,

Originally Posted by G27

A robot cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet) for more than 10
seconds. If a robot has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning robot will be told by
the referee to release the robot and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning robot has
backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count
starts over. If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for
each violation.

Therefore Blue would beat Red 95-85.

[KenWittlief]

the red bot is not 'pinned' if it is free to drive away

the blue bot is preventing it from going up - it is blocking its path in the Z direction

but its not necessarily pinning it so it cant move at all.

besides, the rules state pining only applies when:

(inhibit the movement of another robot while on the carpet)...

on the carpet

also from the rules:

SUPPORTED – If the “supporting object” is removed, the ball would not remain SCORED or CAPPED and/or the ROBOT would not remain HANGING.

if you are sitting on top of another bot, and your cables are slack, or your arm is loose, then you are not hanging to begin with, so you cannot 'remain' hanging when the bot is removed

[Andy Brockway]

I asked this very question at UTC New England. The ruling was that if the Bluabot was removed and the Redabot was hanging then Redabot scores. Aidan was the Head Ref.

[Billfred]

The way I see it, Redabot is definitely NOT hanging. That's not in question at all.

What is in question is Bluabot's method of descent.

IF BLUABOT SLAMMED DOWN ON REDABOT:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 points for Bluabot, as it is defined as hanging in the scenario.
-Warn Bluabot for getting a too rough, penalize if there's some real damage

IF BLUABOT EASED DOWN ON REDABOT IN A SLOW, CAREFUL MANNER TO PREVENT DAMAGE:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 for Bluabot, as it would be hanging (given in scenario).
-No warnings to Bluabot, as it's exhibiting a legitimate strategy and showing enough GP by not intentionally trying to damage Redabot. (Besides, Redabot is supposed to be built to withstand "vigorous interaction.")

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by Billfred

The way I see it, Redabot is definitely NOT hanging. That's not in question at all.

What is in question is Bluabot's method of descent.

IF BLUABOT SLAMMED DOWN ON REDABOT:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 points for Bluabot, as it is defined as hanging in the scenario.
-Warn Bluabot for getting a too rough, penalize if there's some real damage

IF BLUABOT EASED DOWN ON REDABOT IN A SLOW, CAREFUL MANNER TO PREVENT DAMAGE:
-No points for Redabot, as it's not hanging.
-50 for Bluabot, as it would be hanging (given in scenario).
-No warnings to Bluabot, as it's exhibiting a legitimate strategy and showing enough GP by not intentionally trying to damage Redabot. (Besides, Redabot is supposed to be built to withstand "vigorous interaction.")

Great minds think alike I see.

[Greg Ross]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

Great minds think alike I see.

Yep. And I agree with Ken Wittlief's analysis.

Red is obviously NOT hanging, because it is touching the platform.

Blue is NOT hanging, because, if Red is SUPPORTING enough of Blue's weight that it can't raise itself off of the platform, then the chin-up bar is NOT supporting Blue.

[Collin Fultz]

Originally Posted by gwross

Yep. And I agree with Ken Wittlief's analysis.

Red is obviously NOT hanging, because it is touching the platform.

Blue is NOT hanging, because, if Red is SUPPORTING enough of Blue's weight that it can't raise itself off of the platform, then the chin-up bar is NOT supporting Blue.

it would, however, be a ref's call. they would attempt to remove the red bot without disturbing the blue bot. after red's removal, it would be up to the refs to decide if blue was hanging or not. everyway I have ever heard a head ref explain it (at two driver meetings) is "If everything else were removed, would the robot be hanging." I think the answer is "yes" (at least in the picture in my head). unless for some reason blue's hooking aparatus is longer than 9 feet and after red is removed they touch the platform...then they aren't hanging. however, more than likely (again still using picture in my head) blue hangs +50. i guess we kind of agree...i must only have half a great mind...now to figure out which half it is...

[Astronouth7303]

My idea (which probably throws away a few rules) is this:

• Penalize bluabot for forcing redabot down (poor sportsmanship if nothing else)
• DON'T give bluabot 50 points (penelty)
• Give redabot 50 points (w/o bluabot, who was penalized, redabot would hang)

[Kevin Sevcik]

I suppose I'll toss my pennies into the argument now..

For the record, this exact situation occurred at LSR, which is where I assume Lucien got the idea from. The call as made was that Blue WAS hanging and Red was NOT. I didn't discuss with the refs, but I assume the logic was as mentioned earlier. Red was touching, when red was removed, Blue was still hanging. There were no other penalties given, as Blue lowered itself very slowly.

I'll just comment real (not) quick:

Red is obviously not hanging, as it is touching the ground, so supported this and removing that is immaterial. if it couldn't lift in the first place because a robot was above it, but enough energy was stored to lift it when the offending robot was removed, it would seem very, very odd to suddenly give it 50 points. How Red has ended up touching is, I think, immaterial. Bringing that into the argument would so horribly complicate rulings that it is infeasible.

Blue obviously IS hanging, if it is still above the platform when Red is removed. The definition of supported clearly states that an object is supported, for FIRST scoring purposes, is the robot is no longer hanging when the supporting object is removed. Thus, by FIRST definition, red cannot be supporting Blue, despite common sense and physics and all that.

Pinning doesn't seem to be an issue here, unless Blue is resting so heavily on Red that Red is completely incapable of moving on the platform. If Red can move to the side, out from under Blue, then it is not pinned. This entire lowering episode is akin to a robot pushing another around on the field. If Team A pushes Team B around in the open field, it is not considered pinning. Atleast, I think it's patently silly to penalize A for pinning when B has the freedom to move away from A. In fact, I have never seen pinning called for such an action. The rule states that pinning is inhibiting a robot's motion. As I see it, this can be interpreted in only two ways: Totally inhibiting, so that a robot may not move at all in any meaningful sense; or partially inhibiting, ie. preventing a robot from moving in any particular direction. If the latter was the correct interpretation, any team could be penalized for pinning simply for getting in the way of another team for several seconds. So, I see dropping onto a robot as simply the vertical equivalent of pushing someone around.

Ahem. that was slightly longer than I'd intended, but I like to be thorough. For the record, my team was the dropping robot, and it won us the match, so I might be biased. I can also state that it was one of the most exciting matches outside of the elims at LSR, and the crowd had no complaints at all about the drama of one robot attempting to dehang another.

[Ali Ahmed]

Yeah thats quite a situation. My guess is that Blue is pinning red and therefore it will be penalized. After that i would that blue and red should be awarded the 50 points.

[jonathan lall]

Regarding the pinning rule, not only does it explicitly apply only to the carpet, but it is specifically designed to stop powerful robots from having too much of an advantage over weak ones (or else it would lead to some pretty defensive strategies). It's also a carry-over from old games and therefore it's reasonable to say it isn't designed to take hanging into account. FIRST has also said otherwise.

Originally Posted by Winged Globe

As the rules are written, Redabot cannot classify as hanging because it does not meet the second point (it *is* touching the platform). This renders the first point (directly supported by the horizontal bar) moot, because the definition of supported says the robot would not be hanging if the supporting object was removed, and Redabot never met the second point of hanging. Hence, Bluabot doesn't come into account. The supported clause is circular and a bit confusing, but touching the platform is clearly not allowed to be hanging.

Bluabot is hanging because it is not touching the ground, it would remain hanging with Redabot removed (not supported by Redabot), and it would not remain hanging (off the ground) with the horizontal bar removed.

Zing. That's the right reasoning according to the rules; the rules are very clear to give a structured and ordered approach to determining whether or not a robot is hanging. If those conditions are met, you can get into the "if this were removed" (ITWR) business.

Originally Posted by Winged Globe

I asked this very question at UTC New England. The ruling was that if the Bluabot was removed and the Redabot was hanging then Redabot scores. Aidan was the Head Ref.

I believe this is in error; clearly Bluabot is not supporting anything (quite the opposite in fact), and therefore ITWR does not apply. If you doubt, refer to the rules given in Winged Globe's post.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

Regarding the pinning rule, not only does it explicitly apply only to the carpet, but it is specifically designed to stop powerful robots from having too much of an advantage over weak ones (or else it would lead to some pretty defensive strategies). It's also a carry-over from old games and therefore it's reasonable to say it isn't designed to take hanging into account. FIRST has also said otherwise.

So it's ok to sit on top of a robot, or pin them against a stationary goal, or against the second level, or against the vertical bars, as long as you aren't on the carpet? What about grabbing them with your arm and lifting them off the carpet (assuming no damage done).

That certainly doesn't seem to be the intent of the rule.

[jonathan lall]

Are you asking me, or the people that wrote the rules? The carpet clause is explicit and not open to interpretation, but furthermore, I'd do it given the chance, and I can justify it in my own mind by saying I'm preventing that robot from reaching a specific goal, rather than parking in front of them in order to take them out of the game, which is the reason the rule exists in the first place. Stopping a robot from a specific target is still GP and is strategic; pinning them for the whole match is lame (though running down 10 seconds is certainly viable).