"Spare Parts" Rules Are Broken

[Kris Verdeyen]

After some consideration, a ski trip, and the Lone Star Regional, I think I'm ready to dive back in....

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

You are simply wrong whe you assume that our competition parts get modified after ship. They don't. If a part gets modified it is no longer a competition part and on our team it doesn't get used during any competition.

I apologize for impugning you and your team, Ken. That was not what I was trying to do. I realize that you do follow the letter and spirit of the rules as they are now written.

The point I was trying to make is not that teams are breaking the rules (which we can't do much about), but that the rules are structured so as to be meaningless (they are, as the title of the thread says, broken). What is the difference between having a spare robot in the arena and having it in the back of a truck in a parking lot? How does it make sense that one would be legal and the other illegal?

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

We resoldered some PWM cables to a switch in a case where the ONLY thing that was not pre-ship was the SOLDER.

This follows both the letter and the spirit of the law. But it also proves that the letter of the law is really stupid. What sense does it make to have a component that was built legally, then modified after ship, to have to be de-modified and then re-modified at the competition? It's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

As to the "appearances" complaint, I respectfully disagree with you. I think you are letting the lawyers win when you start nitpicking about appearances in a case where someone has actually followed the rules.

I think that the reason "the lawyers" have gotten such a bad image (apart from Dave Lavery's famous post) is because (of the unfair stereotype that) they don't care about appearances of wrongdoing, and therefore don't appear to care about right and wrong, and focus entirely on the written law and its many unpluggable loopholes.

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

FIRST has so many instances where the thing that keeps us within the rules is our own conscience - my guess is they WANT to trust us and want us to trust each other. Its part of the FIRST culture isn't it?

I'm not sure about the other regionals, but at the Lone Star regional last weekend, all robots in the elimination rounds were weighed before every elim match. This was, according to our head inspector, because during some random re-inspections, robots at other regionals had been found to have gained as much as 4-5 pounds since their initial inspection. The reason I bring it up is not to say that we're all crooks and need constant supervision to be kept in line, but to show that the culture of trust and sportsmanship is slipping. There are hundreds of new FIRST teams every year, and it will be a battle to make sure that every participant on every one of them knows that the rules are something we take seriously. We don't look the other way when a rule is bent or broken, even for established teams.

In order to accomplish that, we need to limit (in the rules) what can be brought to the competition to raw materials and OTS parts. Everything else either comes in the crate or stays at home.

/An edit - excerpts from codes of ethics
The IEEE code of ethics includes:
[We agree] to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible...

The NSPE code of ethics includes:
Engineers shall disclose all known or potential conflicts of interest that could influence or appear to influence their judgment or the quality of their services.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

I'm not sure about the other regionals, but at the Lone Star regional last weekend, all robots in the elimination rounds were weighed before every elim match. This was, according to our head inspector, because during some random re-inspections, robots at other regionals had been found to have gained as much as 4-5 pounds since their initial inspection. The reason I bring it up is not to say that we're all crooks and need constant supervision to be kept in line, but to show that the culture of trust and sportsmanship is slipping. There are hundreds of new FIRST teams every year, and it will be a battle to make sure that every participant on every one of them knows that the rules are something we take seriously. We don't look the other way when a rule is bent or broken, even for established teams.

Don't even get me started on that.
At Buckeye, our team had a chain-driven drive train consisting of 45 tooth plastic sprockets. We couldn't use the steel ones we had because they were about 8 pounds heavier. But the plastic sprockets kept braking. we ran out, and ended up using the steel ones. We had 1 match before the inspectors weighed us. 5 pounds over weight. We ended up taking of the compressor to make weight. This about crippled our arm, the height/angle was powered by pnuematics!

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

...But the plastic sprockets kept braking. we ran out, and ended up using the steel ones. We had 1 match before the inspectors weighed us. 5 pounds over weight. We ended up taking of the compressor to make weight. This about crippled our arm, the height/angle was powered by pnuematics!

So you actually ran one match with a 135 pound robot? And you still think that it's no big deal? The weight limit, more than anything else, defines the robots that we build. It is a very important rule. Some might say it's the most important robot rule.

If you didn't have the weight to put the steel sprockets on, you should have taken something else off. Weight is the ultimate bogey.

It really sucks that you had to use plastic sprockets, but there is no way I'm going to feel sorry that you had to dump your compressor.

[steven114]

Speed holes, man

[Biff]

Originally Posted by steven114

Speed holes, man

The Machine Shop was able to get the steel 45 sprockets down to 16oz from almost 30 The Plastic sprockets were 6.4 oz And later when I did the Density calculation (with the help of a web caculator) I found that 16 oz of steel volume wise is the same as 5.5 oz of Aluminum. Sooo, next time any sprocket over about 20 teeth in #35 chain will be Aluminum. Am working with inventor and the Autodesk mechinical now. Just need to get started sooner next year. BTW it was all my fualt for the over wight, The bot strated with steel sprockets and pillow blocks and had to loose them as things got added. With Steel spockets on we never had any issues with chain. I know better now and won't put the team or First in that situation again.

[CrazyCarl461]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

Maybe we should have forfeited the next match and swiss-cheesed them.

That is exactly what you should have done. No question. You gotta do what you gotta do to play by the rules. Playing overweight is flat-out unacceptable.
By the way, we had to remove our compressor, too. It sure is harder, but we get by.

Originally Posted by Biff

Sooo, next time any sprocket over about 20 teeth in #35 chain will be Aluminum.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with using aluminum sprockets as long as there are enough teeth engaged (i.e. big enough and enough chain wrap). Our arm has a 60 tooth hubless aluminum sprocket that we got from a snowmobile parts distributor out in California. We even drilled holes in that! If has got to be the coolest thing on our robot.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl461

That is exactly what you should have done. No question. You gotta do what you gotta do to play by the rules. Playing overweight is flat-out unacceptable.
By the way, we had to remove our compressor, too. It sure is harder, but we get by.



I agree, there is nothing wrong with using aluminum sprockets as long as there are enough teeth engaged (i.e. big enough and enough chain wrap). Our arm has a 60 tooth hubless aluminum sprocket that we got from a snowmobile parts distributor out in California. We even drilled holes in that! If has got to be the coolest thing on our robot.

Swiss cheeze it is, BTW all of our sprockes have a 180 deg wrap, Was trying to not have one wheel chain fail kill the whole side of the bot. Hope to get the aluminum done and make the Kettering event in the fall, use this as a recrutment tool to get more students on the team and give them a pre main event experiance.

[Astronouth7303]

You haven't seen the bot.
The frame is fiberglass (we work in a wood shop). And we barely had time to change the sprockets, much less swiss-cheese them. but just about everything else was. We fixed that at West MI.

By the way: the arm was it. No bin, no opening side flaps, nothing. We just put a valve on the tank and plugged it in until the match. I'm not saying that we have a disregard for the rules. Our original bot was in weight, but we ran out of sprockets. We made every effort to remain in the rules, however the circumstances were out of our control at that point. Maybe unfairly, you'll say not. We tried our best, but aparently that was not enough.
Maybe you have no heart, maybe you're arrogant, and maybe your right. Maybe some of all 3. In any case, I'm not caring what you say. Maybe we should have forfeited the next match and swiss-cheesed them. I DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT! So what if our bot was crippled? Maybe you were the guy across the field. I'm not caring about you at this point. Any response you make at this point I WILL IGNORE.

[rees2001]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

You haven't seen the bot.
We made every effort to remain in the rules, however the circumstances were out of our control at that point. Maybe unfairly, you'll say not. We tried our best, but aparently that was not enough.

Maybe you have no heart, maybe you're arrogant, and maybe your right. Maybe some of all 3. In any case, I'm not caring what you say. Maybe we should have forfeited the next match and swiss-cheesed them. I DON'T CARE AT THIS POINT! So what if our bot was crippled? Maybe you were the guy across the field. I'm not caring about you at this point. Any response you make at this point I WILL IGNORE.

Wow, I really hope you are still following this thread because.. I'm sorry. I saw your robot get weighed after your match. I was shocked & a little upset. When you indicate that you tried, I believe you. There are so many ways you could have delt with this. I understand your want to compete & use your robot as it is intended to be used but, this competition isn't about YOU. We are a comminity and when one of us goes astray, we all go astray.

Our first year (2000) we made lexan hooks that snaped in a match. We replaced them with aluminum and played in our next match. After that match we went & got ourselves reweighed. We weren't asked to we wanted to. We were slightly over weight, we then took off another component, our arms. Nobody told us to do so, nobody asked us to do so. We knew it was the right thing to do.

I am mostly concerned about the way you feel about what happened. Nobody is looking at you and saying "your what's wrong with FIRST." Were saying "how can we help you do what you want to do?" FIRST is about learning & competing but is also about having fun & doing whats right. THere were 60+ other teams at Buckeye, I know I would have been willing to help you. Just ask.

BTW: I don't remember if we won or lost the match we played overweight in, that was 5 years ago. I just know how we flet like we had done the wrong thing & had to make it right. & we did.

I think i just torn my MCL getting off my soapbox. Ouch