Reputations. Do they deserve more careful thought?

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

All that said, I do understand that there are many learning and physical disablilities that can impede communication. However, I do not think that people who have the capability to express themselves should get a free pass to be lazy because someone else in the world has a disability.

I agree with you that everyone should strive for their fullest potential, and that lazyness is not something to be nurtured

but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, buy creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?

do you do this in person? if someone is speaking to you do you stop and correct their grammer or syntax? or insist they do not use slang in your presence?

if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"

?! :^)

Im not trying to pick on you here, Im pushing for a kinder, gentler CD - where people can post their thoughts and ideas, without someone examining their english with a spell checker and syntax compiler. The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, but creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?

if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"

I think this is where our misunderstanding lies. I don't rebuke those who post sloppily. I usually just don't say anything back.

It's interesting that you should mention Stephan Hawking, because, if you'll read what he's written, or listen to what he has to say, it's always well thought out and usually phrased in a funny or interesting way. You might even think that because it takes him so long to say anything with the synthesizer (all of his words are chosen by scrolling through a list), he makes sure that what he says is worth saying.

But no, I don't ridicule people publicly (except you, Ken ) for misspelled words and bad grammar, but it does affect the way I think about them, especially if I have no other frame of reference.

/edit - just saw the edit
I'm all for a kindler, gentler, easier to read CD.
/edit - a funny Stephen Hawking Story, I mean, as long as we're off topic:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1...bets.html?pg=2
Check out the 6th paragraph...

[George1902]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.

But it's a two-way street, Ken. I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt on their mistakes if they're willing to make a real effort to limit them.

It is clear when a person is making no such effort.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

I agree with you that everyone should strive for their fullest potential, and that lazyness is not something to be nurtured

but how many quiet, shy or disabled people are you willing to risk offending, or scaring off from posting here, buy creating the impression that CD is a hostile and uppidy place, just to rebuke the occassional sloppy poster?

do you do this in person? if someone is speaking to you do you stop and correct their grammer or syntax? or insist they do not use slang in your presence?

if Steven Hawkins called you on the phone, without his speech synthesizer, would you listen to him for a minute and they go "hey man, Nmm Mnnn Hmm gbym Nmmmm mum mum! I can understand a word your saying - announciate dude, AYE NUN SEE ATE!"

?! :^)

Im not trying to pick on you here, Im pushing for a kinder, gentler CD - where people can post their thoughts and ideas, without someone examining their english with a spell checker and syntax compiler. The gracious part of GP is to expect people will make mistakes from time to time, and to let them go without shining a spotlite on them.

Actually, it seems to me that the "quiet, shy or disabled people" are more likely to take their time and get their thoughts out in reasonably proper language. They also tend to improve in this ability with time. Ken Leung is a shining example of this. I used to get very frustrated trying to read his posts, until I realized that he was not a native speaker of english (then I gave him grace ). Now I have no trouble reading his posts, because his langauge and usage have improved, not because I became more accustomed to his style. If somebody is actually having trouble with the language, then that becomes obvious over time and we should ( and generally do) make allowances.

But it seems to me that the consensus of the members is that the language of this forum is standard american english, not IM speak. This has been discussed before in other threads. I have no problem with handing out a few negative rep points to people who obviously know better and are just being sloppy. Think of them as grammar corrections on a physics lab report. They are there to remind you to do better, but don't necessarily count against you in any real way either.

[KyleGilbert45]

This is my 2 cents about the system.. you can take it or leave it.....

Reputation (system)....Does it deserve this much thought at all?

While I believe this system had very good intentions at its inception, unfortunately I think its turning out to be more of a hassle than anyone wanted it to be. Even though I think the people at the top of the rep list really do belong there I fear that the system may be turning into more of a popularity contest. People shouldn’t base any opinion of the person based on how man green, grey, or red dots they have next to their name because this system isn’t perfect by any means. If anything, follow what LauraN and Brandon stated earlier. “The reputation system is just there to help you form your own opinions, not form them for you.”

I’m not sure what can be done to fix any errors with this system to make it more reputation based. Maybe a point reset with more strict rules and guidelines to giving out positive and negative points will fix the system? Maybe the system deserves a name change? Maybe we really don’t need the system at all? I’m not sure, but I don’t think that people shouldn’t be worrying this much about the Reputation System and how many colored dots they have next to their name.

[computhief263]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

But it seems to me that the consensus of the members is that the language of this forum is standard american english, not IM speak. This has been discussed before in other threads. I have no problem with handing out a few negative rep points to people who obviously know better and are just being sloppy. Think of them as grammar corrections on a physics lab report. They are there to remind you to do better, but don't necessarily count against you in any real way either.

Granted people's ideas are easily understood if in proper english, but is it really that big of a deal if someone types part of a reply "IM speak"? I mean what if someone was typeing a reply that they felt was important but was in some kind of rush, and unconciously used some IM speak. Replacing your with "ur" or people with "ppl". Or conciously in the sake of speed use some shortcuts like "w/" for with of "b/c" for because? Or accidentlly mispelled a few words they werent sure how to spell. Does that mean that they are being sloppy? You can still understand what they are saying, right? I mean if stuff like that frustrates you that much then just stop reading the post. Give them negative rep if u wish, but that doesnt mean that they wont make the mistake again.

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

if ur an intllgnt prsn u cn get the meaning fm vry crptc frms of comnction

rght?

Like he said, "no one likes a spelling and grammar nazi". Especially when the spelling/grammar mistake was just that... a MISTAKE.

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

Yes, I can usually buy a vowel or two and throw it in the right place. But if the person who really wanted to communicate something to me had checked their spelling in the first place, I would believe more readily that they actually wanted to know the answer, which would lead me to give a more thoughtful response back. If the question looks like it took two seconds worth of thought to come up with, why should I spend ten minutes writing out a well-reasoned response?

I'll throw my support in with Ken. Some people honestly aren't that good at English. Not only are there are people who's native langauge isn't Engish and people with disablities, there are also those who parents can't afford to send them to a private school and live in the inner city, where their kid goes to a public school. They might not even have learned, at least it wasn't important, what good grammar and spelink () is. If someone is trying to answer another's question or their asking a question of their own, does the fact that they use 'to' where they should have used 'too' invaidate what they are saying?

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Texan

Some people honestly aren't that good at English.

Y'know, not for anything, but I don't really know squat about engineering. I'm a really, really bad math student and I didn't pay a cent's worth of attention in any of the mechanical engineering classes I took. If you really examine some of the things I post, that's patently clear.

When I make a post to these forums that has even the slightest hint of math or engineering theory in it, I check myself over; sometimes two or three times. I do pages and pages of equations to make sure I didn't miss something. I check references to make sure that my formulas are correct. Then, I spell check and reread my post to make sure that I'm communicating that hard work I just did in the best way that I can.

I don't care if you're not very good with speaking or writing English. I put a lot of work into the things I'm not very good with and I'm, honestly, quite tired of the excuses I see from people who are nothing short of lazy. If English isn't your strongest subject, work harder. If you have a disability that makes writing or understanding language more difficult, you can let me know and I'll keep it in mind as I read things you post. It's still not an excuse for sloth (i.e., ur, u, ne1, etc.) End of story.

there are also those who parents can't afford to send them to a private school

Hey, I have had the entirety of my education take place in public schools and colleges and I speak and write English very well.

and live in the inner city

Let's not even start with dumb generalizations about social classes and their intelligence, okay?

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Let's not even start with dumb generalizations about social classes and their intelligence, okay?

This was just my example of a situation where someone might not be afforded the greatest education. I'm not saying that this is true of all inner cities, it is just a case which may be true in some cases.

No offense intended to anyone. I'm sorry if it does.

[ngreen]

The point of these forums is to offer a place for people to communicate. If you want to communicate with the largest amount of people you will use plain, simple English that is nearly grammer and spelling perfect. Using IM chat is okay in some area such as Chit-Chat but for the general forum it advised against. Not everyone understands all IM text while almost everyone can read English. If you choose to use IM or Slang make a note to it's meaning if it is something not known by many.

Being grammatically sound isn't as important as being sound in your content and how you present that content. I seem to use a lot of .... I don't go sentence to ..... sentence. But I always try to use language people can understand and put in a way that I can convey my thoughts.

As for reputation, negative comments should only be placed on those misusing the forums purposely. Sometime you should choose to PM instead.

As for making them right their reason to make them be more rational in their thoughts, it won't work. I got a negative comment once that just said "No!, you're wrong." If negative comments were given out strictly because you said a imperfect comment I don't think I would stick around here.

So be nice on both sides. Use English (sorry, it's not fair), don't be mean, and stop worrying and start having fun. That's what they are for aren't they.

BTW - I have more than three dots so I support the dots.

[computhief263]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

I don't care if you're not very good with speaking or writing English. I put a lot of work into the things I'm not very good with and I'm, honestly, quite tired of the excuses I see from people who are nothing short of lazy. If English isn't your strongest subject, work harder. If you have a disability that makes writing or understanding language more difficult, you can let me know and I'll keep it in mind as I read things you post. It's still not an excuse for sloth (i.e., ur, u, ne1, etc.) End of story.

Excuse me for saying so, but i think your logic is a bit flawed.
Thats good that you put alot of effort into everything you do, and im sure its served u well with many things. But who are you to decided the difference between when somebody is struggling to get thier ideas across and when thier just lazy?

Lets say Person A (a member of the CD forums) is reading a thread, and feels they know something or have a idea that would benefit the discussion. Now thier not the greatest at expressing themselves in any form, but thier working on it and slowly getting better. Does that make what their trying to say anyless signifigant? Are you gonna disregaurd them simply because of a flaw they are working to correct?

I myself cant stand people using rediculous excuses, especially when thier just lazy. But i dont feel that anyone has the right to make snap judgements about another person simply because of some MISTAKES. Especially when 90% of the time you havent (and probably wont) meet the person face to face. Itelligence of a person or worth of thier statments shouldnt be based on words you read on a computer screen.

EDIT: This is the type of thing i think reputation should NOT be based on.

[Chris Hibner]

Back to the topic a little...

I can definitely agree that the system needs some improvement since it is apparently being abused in some cases. However, I don't feel that there's any need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Further improvements are always a good thing. I think the improvements about requiring a comment would be good. I also like the idea of just being able to give comments.

Before the reputation system, there really was a LOT of garbage on these boards. Since the reputation system, I must say that things have been cleaned up quite a bit. For that, I thank the reputation system. Can things be improved? Always - but I think this system is an improvement over the previous system.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by computhief263

Like he said, "no one likes a spelling and grammar nazi". Especially when the spelling/grammar mistake was just that... a MISTAKE.

Mastikes heppan, I even make one or two a year . If it is just a mistake, then that will be evident from the rest of what that person has posted. Many times I personally won't even notice misspellings and other minor errors because my brain automatically "fixes" things to what it thinks it should be. Most of the time the only reason I even notice other's mistakes is my "autofix routine" produces something that doesn't make sense. So I have to look twice.

I am not concerned with mistakes nor do I jump on people for obvious mistyping or misspelling of uncommon words. I am concerned that standards of good english be upheld and that those who practice them be recognized in a positive way. I feel that it is especially important for those of us who are mentors to provide an example in this area. Though I can not recall any mentors who have a problem with this.

Maybe that is the best argument. Those of us who are professionals and trying to be examples to you all CHOOSE to communicate using standard english. We work to make our posts examples of clear thinking and understandable to all. If you are trying to be like us, to eventually do the jobs we do, shouldn't you be striving to do the same?

Writing well takes practice. But once you have learned to do it, it is actually harder to use slang, because you have to think about it. This is a great place to practice your writing skills, because there is no real penalty if you do not do it well. Yes, your "Reputation" might suffer for a little while. But what does that cost you? It is not like it goes on your transcript and stays there forever like failing an English class would.

On the other hand, if you only can type IM speak, because that is all you have practiced, what are the chances that your resume will be accepted at a large company? It might be good enough at "Joe's Computers" down the street, but it will not work at Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Rolls Royce, or NASA to name a prominent few.

If you do start to communicate well using a language we can all read, maybe your "Reputation" will grow too. Stranger things have happened.

By the way. Some of you may have noticed that the first two words of my response are misspelled. That was deliberate and intended for a humorous effect (and therefore not a mistake). If I habitually misspelled words or took other shortcuts, then the joke would not "work". I can take liberties and use them to effect because I know what is "supposed to be" and you know that I know because of my other writing, even within this post. If I wrote the rest of this post in IM speak and slang, then you would think I was just another ignoramus.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

I think this is where our misunderstanding lies. I don't rebuke those who post sloppily. I usually just don't say anything back.

I'm all for a kindler, gentler, easier to read CD.

Kris is completely right.
Maybe I am a grammar elitist, but I will come out and say that I DO judge people on their ability to communicate on these forums. This of course is NOT to say that I do anything to disparage the ideas of bad spellers or those who abbreviate. Let me explain.

I can't expect everyone on these forums to be great at English. In fact, assuming that would be ridiculous; nobody is perfect. I can't expect everyone's posts to be clear, consise, or even in the same tense... I am not an English teacher. And yes, I make mistakes. A vast majority of my own posts edited by myself are from proofreading and realizing that something is wrong.

But looking at some posts, it might as well be Greek to us to decipher them. Nobody wants to sit here and sound out your AOL abbreviations when they're looking for quick, honest programming help. And guaranteed, it doesn't make you look so hot when you're posting something about your team and can barely spell out what you are trying to say. English is not the language of the future here, people. This is basic communication. Learn it. It's kinda like writing bad code on purpose - it's pointless and you're just going to end up with a lot of people not looking upon you so highly. 'ur' and 'u' and all these incorrect, ignorant misspellings just make things harder to read.

Are these negative rep-worthy? Not really. But guaranteed, 500 posts from the same person writing incorrectly and indecipherably are going to get VERY annoying VERY quickly. Spelling and grammar nazi's may be a little out of hand, but if nobody can tell what you are saying, why are you bothering to post? That's where repping the person comes into play.

If you don't agree with this, that's fine. But you still read this and know what I mean because I can practice English somewhat correctly. I don't ask much but an attempt of the same. You may be here to learn about science and technology, but you'll go nowhere fast without clear communication.

_________________

As for some of the earlier posts about the reputation system being flawed, I ask you, what is the flaw? Judgement from peers? The reputation system is the same as it is in real life. If you can't get your ideas or information across and only talk to someone in one word sentences, I don't know that you're going to be highly regarded. That's the common thing with many of the people high on the list - they help, they communicate, they contribute. I'm surprised I'm up there with them, but just like John said, it hasn't been friends deciding it would be fun to rep me, just for the halibut. I've been negative repped before... Big deal. Sometimes things need to be said.

I'm not a huge fan of the reputation system, but that's mainly because I forget that it's there and generally send out a PM or IM if I need to say something about that post. It's a good system, though, if used correctly.

Again, it's like life - you're going to have to put up with some jerks... just deal and practice your self control, and mainly people will treat you with the same respect.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Mastikes heppan, ...
.
.
.
By the way. Some of you may have noticed that the first two words of my response are misspelled. That was deliberate and intended for a humorous effect (and therefore not a mistake). If I habitually misspelled words or took other shortcuts, then the joke would not "work". I can take liberties and use them to effect because I know what is "supposed to be" and you know that I know because of my other writing, even within this post. If I wrote the rest of this post in IM speak and slang, then you would think I was just another ignoramus.

I'm sorry - I know this is one of those empty, 'space-wasting', possibly in-appropriate responses, but I just couldn't help myself ...

THAT was GREAT Chris ... pos. reps coming your way !!