Lawyer bashing on CD

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

It seems by your quote that engineers are more worthy people than others, like businessmen. What makes the engineering better than other careers?

I hope I'm misunderstanding you.

I have devoted the last 24 years of my life to being an engineer, and being the best engineer I can

so obviously I feel this is the best profession choice for me (or I would be doing something else)

everyone has their own unique gifts and talents, and has to find their own place in the world

does that mean that people in one profession are more worthy than others?

Im not sure what you mean by worthy, but ask yourself - with regards to professions, which ones come to mind when you think of

noble, honorable, professional, admirable

and which ones when you think of people who are

sleazy, underhanded, slimy, crafty, sneaky, dispicable....

or how about

greedy, profiteering, ambitious, selfserving...

we all have our own preconceived notions on which professions tend to draw or attract which type of people, right?

there is a whole universe of information out there. we would not be able to function if we did not try to sort and catigorize it, to make generalizations that are accurate on some level

that doesnt mean there arent exceptions

[Yan Wang]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Im not sure what you mean by worthy, but ask yourself - with regards to professions, which ones come to mind when you think of

noble, honorable, professional, admirable

KNIGHTS!

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

Are there sleazeball lawyers out there? Absolutely. I've never met one, but, then, I don't know many lawyers. I do, however, know lots of engineers, teachers, electricians, and umpires, and I've run across sleazeballs in each of those categories. .

I take it you dont have a TV then? borrow one and turn it on for ten minutes and see how many lawyers faces you see, who want to handle your million dollar lawsuit against a trucking company or doctor...

and see howmany engineering firms have ads every ten minutes who want to build a shoddy bridge or tower for you for $2M , or who want to sell you a car that will burst into flames when you back it out of the garage?

[Ryan F.]

Okay, in my opinion, this thread has been taken too far. What are you accomplishing anymore? Right now all I'm seeing is a couple people bickering...and everone has such strong beliefs that your really not going to change each others minds. Just give it a rest.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by rforystek

What are you accomplishing?

Kris is showing that he is a man of tolerance and intelligence, and is trying to show that the common stereotype of lawyers is unfair and often unjust.

Ken is showing that he supports the lawyer stereotype, and has done so in front of several hundred HS kids of whom he is supposed to be a role model.
Then again, I think that is what this thread is all about.

Both have proven their points admirably.
Others have chimed in on one side or the other (or somewhere in between).


I just can't tolerate, intolerant people.

John

[michael_obrien]

jeez, relax everyone, we're just comparing finding loopholes in FIRST rules to finding loopholes in law, we're not plotting to take over the government and have all the lawyers slaughtered... or at least... I'm not.

the true purpose of FIRST has been discovered!

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Im not sure what you mean by worthy, but ask yourself - with regards to professions, which ones come to mind when you think of

noble, honorable, professional, admirable

and which ones when you think of people who are

sleazy, underhanded, slimy, crafty, sneaky, dispicable....

or how about

greedy, profiteering, ambitious, selfserving...

we all have our own preconceived notions on which professions tend to draw or attract which type of people, right?

Is it not true that one of FIRST's objectives is to change the negative stereotypes that some young people in this society have against science, technology, and engineering? If this is true, then what purpose does supporting negative stereotypes about other professions serve? Sure, we could show how engineers are better than lawyers, but what greater good does that create?

These steretypes (or any stereotypes about any career) seem to be polar opposites of how FIRST is supposed to mold our minds.

[Kristina]

Thoughts from an aspiring lawyer:

Over the past day, I've received this link from many people and finally reading the many pages, I was surprised to see how much has been written. I think that Kris identified a viable problem on these boards and it was fittingly put under the forum suggestions/comments section. I thought merely the solution would be: cut down on the lawyer bashing.

It shouldn't matter if you don't like people finding loopholes or not and it shouldn't matter if there are sleazy lawyers out there. We can all talk about gracious professionalism but wouldn't also encompass the idea: If you don't have anything nice to say, just don't say it?

Why do lawyers get a bad rep, because people sit there an complain. Well essentially when I see people make fun of lawyers, they're doing the same. If you think they're so bad, making jokes about them isn't going to improve the situation. If anything, I think it just makes it worse. How do you expect the law to become a respectable profession if no one respects it?

So if there's a problem out in the world, I think there are far better ways to go about solving it than utilizing stereotypes. To use another elementary school cliche, two wrongs don't make a right. I personally have grown a thick skin from my dabbling in politics so I'm not offended by lawyer jokes, I knew what I was signing up for basically when I set my sights on law school. However, I will say that I am disappointed at times by what I see written. The jokes really do just get old and I often wonder what the joy is in putting down other people or other professions.

So here's my challenge to all of you: If you want the world of science and technology to be respected, you have to respect other areas. The jokes may just be lighthearted and in jest, but just remember that there are people on this board or people who have family in or aspiring to be in the areas that you make jokes about. I would greatly appreciate it if people laid off the jokes and analogies, and in general, are just careful about what you write. While conversation is colloquial, forum boards are different than just a conversation with a friend. They're in writing for people all across the nation to see. You're representing yourself, your team, and the entire FIRST community. Certain remarks, even the jokes, can make the entire community seem exclusive and elitist, and I know that's not how it is at all, but that's how it can appear. I may not like science but I have the utmost respect for engineers; I would appreciate if that respect was reciprocated for the field I would like to go into.

[ngreen]

Originally Posted by JVN

Kris is showing that he is a man of tolerance and intelligence, and is trying to show that the common stereotype of lawyers is unfair and often unjust.

Ken is showing that he supports the lawyer stereotype, and has done so in front of several hundred HS kids of whom he is supposed to be a role model.
Then again, I think that is what this thread is all about.

Both have proven their points admirably.
Others have chimed in on one side or the other (or somewhere in between).


I just can't tolerate, intolerant people.

John

Looks like we are going to have to take some people to the museum of tolerance or tolerance camp. Just like there are gay people and then Mr. Garrison, there are lawyers and then there are the money-hungry, coniving people who work as lawyers. Don't confuse the two.

Weird how this come up the week before Lemmiwinks returns. I know I'll be crashed down in my Embassy Suite room trying to get some more insight into if lawyers are bad tommorow night.

Also, weird how every question is somehow answered in South Park.

[MikeDubreuil]

I think a big problem is that Dean Kamen doesn't communicate his intentions effectively when he attacks lawyers.

Does Dean believe the negative stereotypes of lawyers and is imposing his intolerent beliefs on us? Or is Dean simply using the legal system as a metaphor for what he doesn't want to see happen to the rules in FIRST?

Can you really fault anyone in FIRST for thinking a certain way about lawyers when the "head role model" sends such a scrambled message?

Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil

Can you really fault anyone in FIRST for thinking a certain way about lawyers when the "head role model" sends such a scrambled message?

Yes, one cannot use the mistakes of another as an excuse to make those same mistakes.

I saw this on a spotlight (I paraphrase):
If FIRST asked you to jump off a bridge, would you?
Of course not.

We need to be leaders not followers.

[KenWittlief]

maybe Dean has reasons for joking that the model of stonehedge on his island is 'where we sacrifice the lawyers' ?

Ive clearly stated that there are many in the legal profession who are providing a valuable service to society

but I keep getting bashed in this thread for 'supporting negative stereotypes' about lawyers

why is it wrong for me to agree that to a large extent lawyers have earned a negative reputation (in general, in society as a whole)

but its ok for people to generalize what I have said in this thread and label me as a poor role model now?

Ive given a few specific examples of cases I have personal knowledge of, and I could give many more

but Ive already taken enough flack in this thread - if you live in the US you will deal with lawyers sooner or later in your personal and professional lives

see for yourself - then decide if the 'negative stereotype' has any validity to it?

learn from your own experience - form you own opinions.

[Collin Fultz]

not all lawyers are bad...there's always Matlock

[mtrawls]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

why is it wrong for me to agree that to a large extent lawyers have earned a negative reputation (in general, in society as a whole)

but its ok for people to generalize what I have said in this thread and label me as a poor role model now?

I sure hope no one thinks you "a poor role model" -- I'm quite sure it couldn't be farther from the truth! Some people just don't like the idea of generalizations for whatever reason ... but I do agree with you that lawyers have a bad reputation, and some of them deserve it (and more)! But a lot of it, all the technicalities and such, have their place; even though someone disagrees with another, he still has his rights until proven guilty following due process of law. I can't claim to make any statement as to how many lawyers might be good and how many bad (for one "good" and "bad" aren't so easy to define, and it just so happens I'm not yet surrounded by lawyers) -- my point is just that some of what makes people angry at lawyers is completely necessary in our justice system.

I wouldn't go so far as others, though, to say to stop all this lawyer bashing -- just to keep it in perspective. I for one don't want to lose a valuable source of humor

And to re-iterate what I said earlier ... no one ought to think you a poor role model for this discourse -- offering your opinion candidly for all to see (despite apparent disagreement from many) is certainly nothing to be considered poor role modeling! Oy, is it just me or is this thread beginning to get crazy? I make a motion for a gag order! (Just kidding ...)

[10intheCrunch]

As a small aside:

I think we are making a tragic mistake in believing that science and technology is the ultimate in humanity and that gracious professionalism grows naturally out of engineering. Ken, maybe you are right; engineers find solutions. But to which problems? Keep in mind that nuclear weapons, bombs of all sorts, highpowered weaponry that injures and kills in the warfield and in our homes were all built by engineers that found solutions.

I reiterate: please, judge every person by their own worth, their own actions. A title describes some aspects of you, but it does not define you. Hopefully we will all define ourselves positively through this discussion.