A new era for FIRST.....and mixed feelings

[skrussel]

With the advent of the FIRST 2005 season, big changes are in store. Having to qualify to compete at Nationals will change the direction and feeling of the game.

Two schools of thought:
* The competition at Nationals will consist of the higher scoring teams from regionals. This could be much more exciting. More like sports playoffs. Some teams salivate at the thought of moving this whole thing to a new level. Think of what a thrill it would be to qualify. Think of the possibility of thoroughly spectacular matches because most of the robots will be more robust, and more reliable.

Is this a good thing??

* But alas, what about the teams who don't qualify at regionals?
What about the teams who can't build a second bot, or go to multiple regionals to increase their chances?

It's true that we saw some fabulous rookie teams this year. But still, having to qualify to get to Nationals will really keep a lot of teams out of the game.
To have a chance to compete in Nationals has been a highly coveted opportunity over the years. At least with odds/evens, you would get there sooner or later!

So is this then a bad thing??

A little of both maybe. To strive for Nationals can only make us all better, but could the disappointment at not having a chance be disruptive to the existence of a team? Will sponsorship be affected? Will engineering support be affected? Am I being too negative?

Regardless, we're at the beginning of a new era now, and change is inevitable. Wonder how it will all play out?

[Erin Rapacki]

Just a thought... but isn't it one of the collaborating teams who won the National Chairman's Award?

With creative thinking, this shouldn't be a dead-end for any team. Go looking outside the box and you'll find a way to get into the Championships (if that is your team's one and only goal).

-erin

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by skrussel

At least with odds/evens, you would get there sooner or later!

You still will get there sooner or later with the new tier system. The longer it's been since you went to nationals, the higher tier you are in and the earlier you get to register for nationals.

The even/odd system was equivilant to the tier system, just with only two tiers.

[opnickc]

True, less teams will make it to nationals, but keep in mind how far FIRST has come.

As said in the History of FIRST workshop, "New 'Super' Regionals are becoming like the old Nationals."

In other words, the regionals are what nationals used to be, making nationals even better. Less teams may make it, but those that don't will have had a great time at regional(s) and those that did make it will have a more awesome time at nationals than they ever did in the past.

[Collin Fultz]

Originally Posted by skrussel

Two schools of thought:
* The competition at Nationals will consist of the higher scoring teams from regionals. This could be much more exciting. More like sports playoffs. Some teams salivate at the thought of moving this whole thing to a new level. Think of what a thrill it would be to qualify. Think of the possibility of thoroughly spectacular matches because most of the robots will be more robust, and more reliable.

Is this a good thing??

* But alas, what about the teams who don't qualify at regionals?
What about the teams who can't build a second bot, or go to multiple regionals to increase their chances?

It's true that we saw some fabulous rookie teams this year. But still, having to qualify to get to Nationals will really keep a lot of teams out of the game.
To have a chance to compete in Nationals has been a highly coveted opportunity over the years. At least with odds/evens, you would get there sooner or later!

So is this then a bad thing??

A little of both maybe. To strive for Nationals can only make us all better, but could the disappointment at not having a chance be disruptive to the existence of a team? Will sponsorship be affected? Will engineering support be affected? Am I being too negative?

Regardless, we're at the beginning of a new era now, and change is inevitable. Wonder how it will all play out?

The Championships - as they are - are now becoming true Championships. FIRST wants to get more people in the stands at competitions. The grandest of all competitions happened in Atlanta this year. FIRST doesn't sell tickets to the competitions, FIRST doesn't get money from the concessions. Competitive robots bring people back...when people come back...they have a better chance of bringing a sponsorship with them.
Rolls-Royce began sponsoring 234 in 1999. As a rookie team we didn't do well...at all. Rolls didn't care though...they saw the impact of FIRST on our team and came back with more sponsorship.
Competition isn't bad. The fact that all teams can't make it to the Championships isn't a bad thing. This just forces FIRST to make the regionals better, more exciting, and more fun for all teams...that way, if a team can only afford one regional...they don't miss out.

For a while...I've thought that "Championships" should be true finals.
The remaining 1992 teams - that's like 12 teams and can only decline (i hope it doesn't but it could)
Regional winners (3 times 30 regionals (good # for next year) = 90 teams
Regional runner-ups (3 times 30) = 90 teams
Regional #1 and 2 seeds = 60 teams
That's 252 teams assuming no repeats (not likely)

As for deciding other awards...i'm not sure how that would work...i'm still working on it. However, just having representatives from the teams there to talk to judges does make it a little easier on those teams...any ideas on this?

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by opnickc

As said in the History of FIRST workshop, "New 'Super' Regionals are becoming like the old Nationals."

That sentiment couldn't have been echoed any better than at the Canadian (Super) Regional this year. As a member of the first ever Canadian team back in 1998, having gone through Epcot, and even received a FIRST scholarship in 1999, there was nothing I wanted more, than to really do well at the Canadian Regional this year.

We even went to Atlanta this year, but I can tell you when our robot was shipped, my focus was truly on the Canadian Regional, not on the Championships in Atlanata.

Doing well at the Championships in Atlanta was like icing on the cake =).

[Billfred]

Actually, 252 is low. Add three for the 2004 champions, and 10ish for the Chairman's Award winners...we're now probably looking at 270-275.

I agree with the notion that the championship should have the best of the best there--normally, that's because of their robot this year, which leads to really exciting matches. Not only does it do FIRST good (in that it makes people think "hey, that's cool, maybe I should give engineering a look-see"), it also does the spectators good (by putting on a mess of a show) and the teams good (by pitting their robots against some of the best from around the country/world).

Although I wouldn't mind in the least seeing teams more able to attend regionalS. Plural. It lets them get more experience in the game, and in how their team operates in competition, both of which lead to better teams.

[Cory]

Engineering Inspiration should *always* be a qualifier, as well as chairman's award.

$0.02

Cory

[Collin Fultz]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Actually, 252 is low. Add three for the 2004 champions, and 10ish for the Chairman's Award winners...we're now probably looking at 270-275.

I agree with the notion that the championship should have the best of the best there--normally, that's because of their robot this year, which leads to really exciting matches. Not only does it do FIRST good (in that it makes people think "hey, that's cool, maybe I should give engineering a look-see"), it also does the spectators good (by putting on a mess of a show) and the teams good (by pitting their robots against some of the best from around the country/world).

Although I wouldn't mind in the least seeing teams more able to attend regionalS. Plural. It lets them get more experience in the game, and in how their team operates in competition, both of which lead to better teams.

I stand corrected. touchee. also...if at all possible...and i know it isn't...but more fields. there were seventy-some teams in our division and of our representatives to newton we never played with or against any of them...that kind of inhaled audibly. I do apreciate the fact that they cut awards on Friday and opening ceremonies on saturday in order to get more matches in (very good idea!!! ) it would have been nice to get to play a higher percentage of teams in our division. that's why smaller regionals are so great.

[IMDWalrus]

Originally Posted by Cory

Engineering Inspiration should *always* be a qualifier, as well as chairman's award.

$0.02

Cory

Along the same lines, I think Sportsmanship should be a qualifier as well. We preach Gracious Professionalism...allowing Sportsmanship winners to go is another way to reward those who use it.

Then again, that would just bump the number of qualifying teams up even more...

I don't have much hope for it being included in the qualifying awards, but that can't stop me from wanting it to be.

[Marc P.]

I remember in 2000, when everyone was eligable to attend nationals, there seemed to be a little more commrodery among teams. Maybe it's just me, but I've seen an increase in the level of competition since the qualification system was put into place. In 2000, it didn't matter if you won or lost a regional, everyone would still get to compete again on the national level. Competition seemed a lot more respectful, and we didn't see or hear about anyone questioning rules or "aggressive" play.

Adding the qualification aspect seems to have increased the need to Win. Otherwise your season is over, and your team goes home to wait for next season (barring off season competitions of course, which were much more scarce back then).

I completely understand the reasoning behind the qualification system, since there is really no way FIRST can accomodate 800+ teams for a single event. However, I can't help but feel it has forced the level of competition up a notch, by taking away the only award every team won by initially entering- the chance to compete again with robots from around the country.

Given that, I liked the even/odd system, and would agree with a tier based system, in the hopes that nationals do not become a "qualification only" event. It's always nice to have something to look forward to after not doing well at a team's only regional.

[Rick]

I don't know why we are inventing a problem that does not exist. This year my team and 60 others were allowed to compete in Atlanta from the waitlist.

SO:

This means that teams from tiers 2-6 did not filll those spots.
Some teams did not know about or forgot to add themeselves to the waitlist.
My team did not qualify for Atlanta in the least and still went along with winning nothing major last year.
As long as your main team contact is on top of things there should be no problems with teams who really want to go.

[Steve Yasick]

I am the team leader from 85. I can give you a different point of view. We have been around for 9 years now. We did not qualify for nationals this year so we participated in 3 regionals. We were 6th at Great Lakes, had big problems at Mid-West and then finished 4th at West Michigan. I think we lost by something like 15 total points to get eliminated. We were on the wait list for nationals but didn't get the "call" when space opened up.

It was very hard for us to watch nationals! We wanted to be there so bad and felt like we came so close. I can tell you as the team leader that it is still a daily mission to help the team keep our heads up. The community outside of FIRST doesn’t understand. They expect us to be at nationals and think we "failed" or had a bad year by not being in Atlanta. I know we didn't "fail". I know we had a great season and I know we could have done well at nationals.

The competition will get tougher every year. I expect us to be more competitive next year and I expect everyone else to make more competitive robots. I don't know what we could have done to get to nationals. Some people say you create your own luck. The way things are changing in FIRST I don't think that will be true, as team skill levels get closer.

Please don't think of this as sour grapes. Like I said before we had a great season. I would like to see some way to let everyone who wants to go to nationals plan on it from the start! We knew we had to "win our way" to nationals. To win your way you really need some luck in FIRST and some cash in reserve. We registered for as many regionals as we could afford then put money in reserve for the possibility of nationals. This really changes how you do the business of running a team.

The regional winners do deserve to go to Atlanta. Maybe the people who pay to get in could be in a different division that could fight it out to get to the finals.

I'm not sure how all that would work. I know that we really missed seeing all of you at nationals.

Take care and have a good off-season. We will see you at Kettering in the Fall.


Steve Yasick

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Steve Yasick

I am the team leader from 85. I can give you a different point of view. We have been around for 9 years now. We did not qualify for nationals this year so we participated in 3 regionals. ...... We were on the wait list for nationals but didn't get the "call" when space opened up.

It was very hard for us to watch nationals! We wanted to be there so bad and felt like we came so close. I can tell you as the team leader that it is still a daily mission to help the team keep our heads up. The community outside of FIRST doesn’t understand. They expect us to be at nationals and think we "failed" or had a bad year by not being in Atlanta. I know we didn't "fail". I know we had a great season and I know we could have done well at nationals.




Steve Yasick

I really appreciate your post Steve - if we hadn't received an at large bid from the wait list I would have been posting those exact sentiments. We had terrible regionals but shined at nationals; I can't imagine staying home.

Does anyone know what sets the limit on teams? Is it hotel accomodations, pit size, number of matches? Isn't there someway we can get everyone there even if we don't compete?

[KenWittlief]

This was discussed quite a bit at the beginning of the season this year - and FIRST has made their intentions pretty clear.

With 30 regionals you would have potentially 90 regional alliance winners and 30 regional chairmans award winners - thats 120 teams

if the championship accepts 300 teams that leaves 180 open spots

with roughly 880 other teams around the world who dont win big at a regional, 880/180 = 4.8 - so teams can maybe attend a championship once every 4 or 5 years

which means the way things are this year, every highschool student will at least have a chance of PARTICIPATING in the world Championship for FIRST at least once in their 4 years of highschool

which is more than you can say for ANY other HS sporting or competition event.

obviously when FIRST reaches its goal of every HS in the US having a team, we will no longer be able to do that - but Im sure state and regional championships will happen by then too.