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Unread 29-04-2004, 16:31
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

I too would be willing to contribute to this effort. I like the idea of using a program to "beautify" the code before submitting it. I also believe that we should have some kind of rating system so that it is easier to identify the value of contributions to the community. It would make it easier to maintain the repository over the long haul. Anyone that downloads the code would be asked to rate it on several metrics like quality of code, clarity of documentation, value of functionality, etc.

I too, like Dave, do this kind of thing for a living.
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Unread 29-04-2004, 16:32
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
Okay, Mark is one. How about some more folks? Dave Flowerday? Kevin Watson?
You guys might want to start with something like the Indian Hill C Style and Coding Standards document.

-Kevin
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Unread 29-04-2004, 16:35
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

If you give the teams a reason to use the "CD Standard" then they will use it.

For instance, we create a code depository with every single line of code following the "CD Standard." We also get IFI, or someone who can work closely with IFI to set the default code up in the "CD Standard." Furthermore, make sure that teams can "drag and drop" code from the depository into the default code with little to no effort at all, so that teams can quickly get a working program.

When you set things up, and, well, force the teams to use the "CD Standard," most teams will follow suite and use it. Also, perhaps make a rule that any true C code (not pseudo-code, for obvious reasons) must be in the "CD Standard" for us to quickly give help and answers. Another forum I frequent (Gentoo Linux Forums, http://forums.gentoo.org), the forum members usually ask for posters to remove comments from their configuration files so they don't waste everyones' time by making them re-read all the comments in XF86Config again. It's a simple request, and yes, it's not the nicest thing to do, but it enforces the standard, which in the end, should make it easier for everyone.

The thing about a standard is, everyone has to use it, or else it's not really a standard, and you've just basically wasted your time, and we all know that from January to late February, we don't have any time to waste .
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Unread 29-04-2004, 17:22
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Watson
You guys might want to start with something like the Indian Hill C Style and Coding Standards document.

-Kevin
I agree Kevin. That's what I've used before.
I also agree with employing a "Pretty Print" style clean-up program as Dave suggested to make it easier to be sure new code adheres to the CD standard.
And Gene's rating system is interesting.

I think the coding standard itself will be fairly easy to define.
For general consumption I think we'll need to be able to condense the major points to one or two sheets of bullets that is then backed by the in-depth standard definition and reasoning.

[edit] We'll need to think hardest about platform (PIC) specific and IFI specific standards.
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Last edited by Mark McLeod : 29-04-2004 at 18:52.
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Unread 29-04-2004, 17:32
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
I am thinking that Brandon can make you folks a special (private or moderated -- your choice) forum
Brandon, don't you love it when people volunteer you for more work? (And I think maybe a moderated forum and an associated white paper section would be good.)

Anyway, I am interested in being a part of this project too.

I agree with Dave's suggestion that code should be peer reviewed before it is accepted into the repository.

I also agree with Kevin's suggestion that we start with an established standard, rather than reinventing the proverbial omni wheel.

Max, you've got some good questions, but I don't know that every one needs to be tacked down before we consider coding styles. Maybe another thread for that?
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Unread 29-04-2004, 17:33
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod
For general consumption I think we'll need to be able to condense the major points to one or two sheets of bullets that is then backed by the in-depth standard definition and reasoning.
Maybe this article will help? (Ignore perl specific stuff, obviously.) Specifically:

Quote:
Coding standards needn't be onerous. Just because there are bad coding standards out there, doesn't mean that all coding standards are bad.

I think the way to a good coding standard is to be as minimalist as possible. Anything more than a couple of pages long, or which deviates too far from common practice, will frustrate developers and won't be followed. And standards that are too detailed may obscure the fact that the code has deeper problems.
This sounds like a really good idea, and I hope it proves successful.
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Unread 29-04-2004, 17:43
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod
For general consumption I think we'll need to be able to condense the major points to one or two sheets of bullets that is then backed by the in-depth standard definition and reasoning.
Maybe this could be in the same form as the FAQs here on CD, where there would be single line statements of each point of the standard, and those would be linked to the in-depth definitions.
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Unread 29-04-2004, 20:00
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

We probably should address repository, software licenses, the rating system, and other side-issues in either the original thread or in new threads and keep this one focused purely on coding standards. Since the original thread was co-opted we might want to start a new thread with a title like "Code Repository."

Okay, let's think about this.
  • Indian Hill C Style Guide as a basis
  • Bring up and discuss any dissentions or alternative styles
  • Associated assembly code standards
Additions/extentions to the above:

-Utilities like "Artistic Style" and lint.

-Design standards (now some of these might be overkill for FIRST) like:
  • Information Hiding - e.g., keep variable definitions visible only to the lowest level that requires it. Within a single routine, within a Project file, or available as a Project wide global variable.
    • Context-based Control - e.g., functions capable of being executed independent of any previous or subsequent executions. Use context structures to maintain information that must be remembered from loop to loop.
    • Object Oriented approach - not true inheritance or anything like that, but for example if you have a widely used data structure you might want to develop a defined set of methods to manipulate data within the structure.
    • Modular functions loosely coupled to the "outside" world.
  • Error Handling - do we want some standardization here since people will be using the repository functions as drop-ins?
  • Function interface standards
What else should we be collectively looking at?



If we can get through some initial brainstorming we can start to divide and conquer the problem.
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Last edited by Mark McLeod : 29-04-2004 at 20:05.
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Unread 30-04-2004, 08:57
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Okay, here is what I think I hear so far:

Marc McLeod is in.
gwross is in.
Dave Flowerday is in.
Kevin Watson has not declared himself as "IN" but is at least making suggestions.
Many others are also interested at least in terms of comments and suggestions.

I am still waiting to hear from the Jason Morella/Dave Lavery collective to see if they have a rep they want on.

I am going to see if I can get on of the C guys from my team to "volunteer"

I also need to get in contact with Innovation First -- Perhaps we can get Bob and Tony to volunteer Mark Lambert or one of there other coders to the project.

There have been a lot of discussion/suggestions on this thread, but as I have said many times, I don't really want to solve the problem here. I think the purpose of this thread should be to firm up the group of people that are going to take ownership of this thing and propose a big picture solution.

Joe J.
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Unread 30-04-2004, 09:21
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

It's hard to restrain myself from start to throwing ideas around as I think of them. I'll restrain myself. I'm camping this weekend anyway, so I'll be out-of-touch until Monday.
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Unread 30-04-2004, 09:51
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
...so, I suppose we will have to have several license levels based on some combination of the author's wishes and the license that the software was developed from (some maybe license free, some maybe gpl, some with other licenses).
Completely license free shouldn't be an option for this project. When you release something with no license, it is covered by normal copyright laws, which are much too restrictive. Thus, the same things you learned about plagiarism still apply and effectively, you can't use the code.

Now, this may not be a problem in FIRST, as I would assume that no one would ever pursue any type of copyright violations. However, if we are going to take the time to teach students about coding standards, we should spend a few extra minutes and talk about correct licensing.

If you really want something with no license, you must explicitly grant it into the public domain. However, the person would have to agree to this when the code is entered into the repository, and a notice that this code is in the public domain would have to appear on the site.

Of course, there are many other licenses that are open source, some would be good for this project, and others wouldn't.

The BSD license (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php) Allows any modification to the code to be used for any reason, as long as the license notice is retained. Thus, it is close to being public domain, but you guarantee that your name will stay with the code for posterity (as opposed to the public domain, where you could remove any notices from the code).

Another problem depends on whether the code is distributed as a library, or a snippet of code (such as a function). If you paste a snippet of code into your file (including the license), you've then licensed the whole source file. So, you are restricted from choosing your own license for other parts of your code.

If the code is distributed as a library, it is a little different. If the code licensed under the GPL (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php), then anything that uses the code must also be GPL. However, if the library is licensed under the LGPL (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/lgpl-license.php), anything that uses it can have a different license.

Even if someone licenses their library as GPL, for FIRST robots, it probably doesn't mean that you have to give other people your entire robot code, however. Under the GPL, you only have to distribute your source to the people who you distribute binaries (it doesn't need to be publicly accessible). Since it isn't likely that you will be giving someone your robot's HEX file, you really don't need to distribute the source.

This last issue makes this not as big of an issue, but it should be addressed in some way.would have to appear on the site.

Of course, there are many other licenses that are open source, some would be good for this project, and others wouldn't.

The BSD license (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php) Allows any modification to the code to be used for any reason, as long as the license notice is retained. Thus, it is close to being public domain, but you guarantee that your name will stay with the code for posterity (as opposed to the public domain, where you could remove any notices from the code).

Another problem depends on whether the code is distributed as a library, or a snippet of code (such as a function). If you paste a snippet of code into your file (including the license), you've then licensed the whole source file. So, you are restricted from chosing your own license for other parts of your code.

If the code is distributed as a library, it is a little different. If the code licensend under the GPL (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.php), then anything that uses the code must also be GPL. However, if the library is licensed under the LGPL (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/lgpl-license.php), anything that uses it can have a different license.

Even if someone licenses their library as GPL, for FIRST robots, it probably doesn't mean that you have to give other people your entire robot code, however. Under the GPL, you only have to distribute your source to the people who you distribute binaries (it doesn't need to be publicly accessible). Since it isn't likely that you will be giving someone your robot's HEX file, you really don't need to distribute the source.

This last issue makes this not as big of an issue, but it should be addressed in some way.
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Unread 30-04-2004, 10:08
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Make it public domain and I like the idea of a library for distribution.
Building a Black-box.
The code is locked from tickering hands, and a document containing
1. function prototype
2. Description of the function
3. Original Author

Can be made up fairly easily.
Versioning of the library would simplify things too.

my 2 cents..

Phil
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Unread 30-04-2004, 11:54
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
Okay, here is what I think I hear so far:
Kevin Watson has not declared himself as "IN" but is at least making suggestions.
Uh oh, peer pressure . Yes, you can pencil me in.

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Unread 30-04-2004, 14:01
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Johnson
Okay, here is what I think I hear so far:

Marc McLeod is in.
gwross is in.
Dave Flowerday is in.
Kevin Watson has not declared himself as "IN" but is at least making suggestions.
Many others are also interested at least in terms of comments and suggestions.

I am still waiting to hear from the Jason Morella/Dave Lavery collective to see if they have a rep they want on.

I am going to see if I can get on of the C guys from my team to "volunteer"

I also need to get in contact with Innovation First -- Perhaps we can get Bob and Tony to volunteer Mark Lambert or one of there other coders to the project.

There have been a lot of discussion/suggestions on this thread, but as I have said many times, I don't really want to solve the problem here. I think the purpose of this thread should be to firm up the group of people that are going to take ownership of this thing and propose a big picture solution.

Joe J.
Please count me in too.
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Unread 30-04-2004, 14:47
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Re: Coding / Style Standards for sharing C code

Here's my 2 cents. (Wrote this up yesterday)
My thoughts on what the standard should be:
  • Allow C++ style comments
  • 1 of the properties of each upload should be "Target System". Right now there only is 5: 'PBASIC Stamp (EDU)', 'PBASIC Stamp (Full)', 'PIC18Fxx (EDU)', 'PIC18Fxx (Full)', and 'None'. 2 of the same processor can be selected (not EDU/Full specific)
  • Hardware info should be noted and ALIASed. (is that a word?) This allows for rapid integration.
  • Actual formating should be uniform with the default code (except for the C++ comment thing)
  • any TABS included will be changed to 4 spaces on upload (or just rejected outright)
  • only debuged code should be uploaded.
  • upload as file(s), NOT textbox.
  • allow multiple files in upload
  • a set of standard libs, functions, etc. are provided ('#include <Repositroy.h>') (Or assumed to be provided)
  • items-in-progress should be marked as such
  • currently, only .h, .c, .bsx, and .zip files are allowed for actual code (Probably will expand)
    Zips can contain full projects, but files MAY be filtered out as deemed necessary by the moderator(s)
  • tools, etc. are kept seperate from code. all tools must be open source. (A 'tool' is anything related to code but is not actually code itself)
  • all code has same EULA: 1) Code is given AS IS. 2) give credit where credit is due. 3) may NOT use code to make money.
  • White space should be included where the C spec allows.
  • PLENTY OF COMMENTS
  • a whitepaper/explainitory file can be included (seperate from code, but accesed together)
  • I know there's more...
I'm focusing more on the repository than the code itself.

Some stuff from the first thread:
  • Integration into CD. [...]
  • More nesting of categories. I know that isn't an issue (yet), but if this thing takes off...
    [...]
  • Improved interface (I'm too used to CD!)

I am willing to help hammer this thing out/code it/whatever. Be warned: I'm 15 (almost 16) and don't have any professional coding expierience. I encourage the guys who end up making this (Why just the profesionals?) to get a forum, but I think keep it public. Those who aren't actually writting should try to restrain from posting there, but I think they should be able to.

What's the noun for "a piece of code that is uploaded to a code repository"?
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