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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 23-03-2002, 23:22
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One other possible thought....

I know at VCU, there was one of the 4 badges handed out that had a little green dot on it. This was supposed to represent that the person wearing it was the coach/mentor and was supposed to be an easy way for the refs to identify them. Now, at least at VCU, there were plenty of teams who weren't following this sceme, but I don't think there were any DQs for anything like this. Could the player who got called for it have been wearing that badge with the green dot??

I dunno, food for thought....
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Unread 23-03-2002, 23:46
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529's DQ

I think that the disqualification of team 529 and their alliance partner, team 102, in match 27 at the Johnson & Johnson Mid-Atlantic Regional was justified. From the four people on each team on the field, one is a mentor, allowed to touch but not throw balls and allowed to observe the field and control system but not interact with these. The operators are intended to manipulate the robot and only that. And the human player is intended to move the balls from the alliance area to the field. This is what FIRST assumes that most teams will do anyway, so it's an interpretable rule. Anyway, that really cool volunteer that everybody checked in with on the red side was saying all day long that the judges were going to enforce that only one person from each team throws and the mentor can definitely not throw, so you had fair warning. Anyway, congrats on getting to the quarter-finals.
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Unread 24-03-2002, 01:08
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NJ regional

At the regionals on Friday, we were DQed for an interesting reason. The engineer that went up to get the badges thursday was told by someone that the badge with the green dot was for the captain of the team. Well I was wearing the pin with the dot and we were dqed because I was driving. Now I am a student and we were dqed after completing about 6 qualifying rounds. We asked for the clarification from the judges but they really didn;t give us the time of day. I'm not sure who told him that the badge with the green dot was for the captain but i thoought it was unfair they dqed us for it. Especially since I never heard an announcement about it.
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Unread 24-03-2002, 01:24
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Our robot this year is a drop down design with a large basket on top. It takes us approx. 5 seconds to reach the ground and then another 5 to load up all 10 (our human player tosses them in two at a time). Once or twice during matches balls have fallen on me (our robot's driver) and I've tossed them into the basket as well. There's never been any issue with this, and I don't think that there should be. The rules say that mentors cannot return balls to the field. Our on field mentor (also a student, btw) hands balls to our human player but never tosses them over. The rules do not state that the driver cannot return balls to the field. If I'm not driving (which I'm not when loading up) is there any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to toss one or two in?

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Unread 24-03-2002, 11:19
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its legal



it is legal. It can be proved by theoperator badges. The coach's operator badge has a yellow sticker on it, which tells the refs they cannot throw a ball onto the playing field. Therefire, any team member w/o this dot is allowed to shoot.
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Unread 24-03-2002, 11:49
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There are only two "kinds" of people in the alliance station: mentors and students. If drivers couldn't shoot or h. players couldn't drive, they would receive a pin with a colored sticker too, and there would be a very clear rule about that in the manual.

My team wants the human player to operate a part of the robot that will be used only in the end of the game, so we'll have 3 students interacting with the robot.

From what I heard from you, I'm sure that the refs. thought the mentor drove the robot. And it's strange to me that they couldn't see a scenario with the driver shooting.
What if the robot was stopped while the driver was shooting?

And I agree with Anthony's reply.


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Unread 24-03-2002, 14:03
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Re: I think its legal.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony S.
(...) So that leaves a human player and what we call a student coach. I don't think the coach threw a ball over the wall but I can see this happening in a match and I'd like to get this straight just in case we do it. (...)
Anthony, according to GM8:
"Mentors who happen to be pre-college students are not considered “students” with respect to
rules of Gameplay and may not engage in activities reserved for students."
So, in this case your student coach can't throw balls to the field. However, nothing in that rule (that's just a part of it) states that the other student operators can't throw balls, or maybe switch positions during the matches (ie driver becomes human player).
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Unread 24-03-2002, 21:36
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174 Coach Driving

174, you were DQ'd for legitimate reasons. The Q'ing line voulenteers were checking to make sure that everyone knew what they were doing in regard to the coach pin. Maybe they just didn't talk to you, I don't know; you should have at least paid attention to whoever spoke to your team about the buttons when they were handed out sometime before the practice rounds began on Thursday. But it's okay.
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Unread 24-03-2002, 21:52
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the marked badge.

Quote:
.originally posted by arctic warrior:
The engineer that went up to get the badges thursday was told by someone that the badge with the green dot was for the captain of the team. Well I was wearing the pin with the dot and we were dqed because I was driving.
I think the rule is pretty clear about the badge with the dot on it. Last year a few teams were DQ'd because the person the the marked badge pushed the red button. That has been very clear for the past year and season that the button was reserved for the mentor meaning the person not interacting with the robot at all. So I believe the DQ was justified, but we live and we learn, we learn from our mistakes.

Quote:
Anthony, according to GM8:"Mentors who happen to be pre-college students are not considered “students” with respect to
rules of Gameplay and may not engage in activities reserved for students."
So, in this case your student coach can't throw balls to the field. However, nothing in that rule (that's just a part of it) states that the other student operators can't throw balls, or maybe switch positions during the matches (ie driver becomes human player).
The other student really had no responsibility, he had on a regular badge and was basically an extra student. So in our case, it is actually possible for us to have two human players because only one person is operating the robot that leaves two students and an adult with the marked badge. Is that legal? I think it is according to the rules.
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Unread 24-03-2002, 22:57
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for everyone who is confused........ 4 people are aloud in the driving area....... 2 drivers, one human player and one coach...... they are all aloud to handle balls but the coach cannot return them to the field....... its pretty clearly stated in the rules (go check adams post above)
the reason i think some people are confused is that in the past only the human player could return the balls to the field, this year the drivers are aloud to asd well
the refs at rutgers made a mistake, it happens, and its dissapointing but theres not much you can do

Becky
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Unread 24-03-2002, 23:35
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Let me reiterate our point as their seems to be confusion. There was 1 adult mentor on each team. Each team also had 3 students. Each mentor did not touch the balls or controls at any time during the match. Only the students drove or returned the balls to the match. And in contrast to what Dan_550 on team 550 said, at no time before this incident was any statement made concerning the return of balls to field made. I remember that a specific example of a DQ was shown before the competition started. It regarded stepping out of the box, not who could throw the ball. Dan_550 unfortunately for you, there is no basis in written rule for your claim just like the refs had none. And no team is required to have 2 people to drive their robot. It may be common practice, however the role of each student on the driving team is NOT defined anywhere. We could, in theory, decide to switch human player and driver in the middle of a match without penalty. A mentor from team 25 even recalled Dean Kamen saying at the Kick-Off that having more than one person on a team returning balls to the field was allowed this year. The bottom line is that if FIRST intended that only 1 human player return balls to the field, then they should have laid it out in the rules clearly. According to the written rules in the 2002 manual there is no basis for the refs' claim in match 27 and I would like to see written evidence that says otherwise. While some may disagree with our position, that have failed to provide written rules, any public statement before match 27, or previous precedents set in prior matches that can support their claim. I apologize for my harsh tone, but this one match severely impacted our final seeding and dropped us out the top 8. While I don't mind people disagreeing with me, I can't stand it when they don't have proof to support it.
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Unread 25-03-2002, 15:06
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All I have to say about this controversy is this. Being one of the refs at the NJ Regional and having spoken to the two Mentors I can assure you that the story your getting is not what actually happened. The call that was made was well justified. Someone mentioned that we talked about it over lunch as if we had doubts as to the validity of our decision. At no time did the validity of the call come under scrutiny. The only thing that changed was the several ways in which we tried explaining our reasoning to the Mentors who seemed to be the only ones who couldn't understand it. I would like to extend a thank you though to the student members of the team who apologized for the behavior of their mentors. Obviously a mistake was made by the Mentors and a frantic attempt to cover it up followed.

Concerning the team who had the wrong pin on the wrong member of the drive team.
It was very unfortunate that we had to make that decision but it was our responsibility to uphold the rules and regulations of FIRST to the best of our ability.
It is unfortunate that we have to learn from our mistakes from time to time but its the way it had to be. The team who was DQed because of the sticker did move onto the quarterfinals so all was not lost.

I am not going to take the time to clarify the rule concerning the handling of the balls by the members of the drive team primarily because it isn't that difficult to understand.

A little bit advice to the teams who are going to more regionals or Nationals........While you may not always agree with or understand the calls of the refs, arguing will not get you anywhere and badgering for explanations of a relatively easy rule to understand only takes away from our ability to do our job.
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Unread 25-03-2002, 20:10
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Refs are Human

Just to let you know, it was not only the mentors of our teams that had strong issues with the refs call. Both teams were very much angered by the DQ and I personally talked to two of the refs after the competition. From all that I saw and heard with my own senses, the refs made a mistake. On the other hand, I don't wish to fuel any heated debates, so am just going to a say a few words.

We completely understood that the call was already made and the score could not be changed. When we went up to the refs, we only asked for a little gracious professionalism on their part and we were greated by a very nasty response.

Personally I ref for soccer and fencing and I understand the pressures that are involved with the job. It is not too diffucult to make an honest mistake, but it is also not too diffucult to admit this mistake. The only thing we asked for was an apology or an explanation of why they changed the fate of our team.

Despite this controversy, I would like to thank them for even coming out to the competition in the first place. I understand that this competition would not take place without them, but it wouldn't be hard to fix this problem. One apology is all we asked for. They are human after all and they do make mistakes.
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Unread 25-03-2002, 21:25
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I realize the refs had to make the decision they did. I just wish we would have known about it sooner or someone had realized our mistake. I guess we learned and now will never had the problem they did. I know some members of my team were not happy, but refs can't please everyone. I admit I was angry at first but then i knew there was nothing else we could do and that we screwed up. We learned. I thought the refs made very good calls throughout the weekend and it seemed like everyone was happy with the outcome. See everyone at Nationals.
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Unread 26-03-2002, 00:06
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ian W.
at NYC, there was a tie (30, 30) and the red tea mone by having more goals i think. as i looked down on the field, i saw the head ref run on shaking his head. a few minutes later, "opps, it's 32, 30, but the red still won". they had apparently missed one ball in a goal.
Yeah that was us who won that match. We actually won anyways because the first tie breaker was the number of goals in scoring position but our human player made a dumb luck shot. The ball he threw bounced on the carpet, bounced off of a ball along the edge of the field and then came to rest (amazingly) on the edge of the goal, outside of the pvc piping!! That was cool, seeing as it was the Finals and all! We won it oficially 31-30!
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