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View Poll Results: Should women be included in the draft?
Yes, women should be drafted into the military. 32 66.67%
No, women should not be drafted. 16 33.33%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 24-05-2004, 17:31
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Re: Women and the Draft

Wow now...let's ease the tension. I think the main focus of this post (ideally) is what role women should play in the draft, and for the sake of avoiding argument, I'd like to stick to that. Personally, I would avoid the draft at all costs as a person because of beliefs, not because of my being female. If I was, however drafted, I would not feel very comfortable saying goodbye to male friends and watching them forced into service while I get out on account of something that is not by any means an issue (physical hardship, pregnancy are good physical reasons, not "womanness".) So I have to say my answer is yes, women should be included, because military is more than frontline combat, which I personally would never participate in through this conflict.

My 0.02
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Unread 24-05-2004, 18:50
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Re: Women and the Draft

Do I want to enter this discussion? Can I resist entering this discussion?

I agree completely that women should be drafted. I find it rather ridiculous that the arguements against allowing women to serve in infantry combat are centered on the physical differences between men and women. While agree that this is obviously an issue, if a woman meets all of the physical requirements (height, weight, stamina, strength, etc) and passes the physical exam, then what difference in the world does it make that she is a woman? How on earth can an argument such as "Women are physically weaker than men" (although based in a generalized truth) still apply?

The only part of Mike's comments that I find offensive is that he seems to be attacking women without letting them speak first. If it is in fact true that women are opposed to being drafted, then I believe it's a valid argument to ask why they support equal rights but not equal responsibilities. However, his comments are based off of that assumption, which is an unfair assumption to make.

I personally feel that women should not only be allowed to fight in the front lines but also should be drafted. If women could be drafted (can they?), I think I would sign up for the draft, to prove what we've all been hearing all our lives: that women can do anything men can do. Maybe it would be a large step for the woman's lib movement if we saw women taking on what remains to this day an untraditional role instead of women trying to convert each other to engineering.

Oh boy. *ducks*

(Disclaimer: I find nothing wrong with women being engineers. In fact, I want to be an engineer. Please hold the rotten tomatoes.)
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Unread 24-05-2004, 20:45
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Sexism and America

Quote:
Things like the draft bring me to the following conclusion: women should not have the right to vote or hold public office.
Things such as the garbage you pollute on these boards, irrespective of which thread you post to, lead me to believe that you possess an ignorance that is both astounding and terrifying. Your misinformed, incorrect, damaging and hurtful "conclusions" are setting the progress of this organization back, wasting my time, and planting the seeds for continued sexism, discrimination and ridiculous, unnecessary discourse like that taking place in this thread.

There is absolutely zero need to reassess the goals and accomplishments of the women's suffrage and equal rights movements as both were wholly justified in their efforts toward creating equality in law and life between men and women. You're ridiculous conclusion that women should not have the right to vote nor hold public office is, aside from obviously sexist, ill-formed and antiquated, borne out of a gargantuan, obvious lack of insight into any of the subjects about which you write.

What further justification can you provide to defend your conclusion? I am confident that there are no observations that you have made regarding the women's movement that have gone unnoticed in the past century by the many who have come before you in their efforts to perpetuate continued misogyny and sexism. I am certain that you have no more tenable ideas regarding why women are somehow your inferior. The only thing about which I am uncertain, really, is if you possess the self-preservation instinct to cut your losses and walk away. Time will tell. You were off to a good start, at the very least, when you started trying to rescind and shift focus away from the comments you made at the outset, instead pretending that this is a discussion about "women and their involvement in protecting their freedoms." It was a laudable, if utterly transparent, effort at saving face.

It seems that for the purposes of defending your conclusion, defending one's freedom can only occur through the use of violence - taking up arms against those who are perceived to be a physical threat to the safety of our borders. This, oddly enough, seems somewhat inconsistent with your fervent assurance that the United States doesn't "ignore oppressive dictators" in a previous thread, unless of course you meant simply that we don't ignore oppressive dictators that threaten our physical or economic well-being. The United States ignored the oppression of non-Aryans by Adolf Hitler for eight years before entering World War II after the attack at Pearl Harbor. Only after December 7, 1941 and an attack on its own (imperially-conquered) soil did the United States show any interest in that particularly oppressive dictator. So, on second thought, it seems as if by reading between the lines, your stated position has been entirely consistent. You're interested only in yourself and in protecting your freedoms. You show very little concern for others, their struggles, or their freedom - unless, of course, it becomes politically advantageous for you to show such concern. Thus, comments such as those you made above, suggesting that women be denied equal rights seem perfectly logical and acceptable - even preferable - in your distorted view of reality. Perhaps you're unaware of the times when the United States has taken up arms against its own people - the internment of the Japanese during World War II being the most notable. Whose freedom were we protecting then? It certainly doesn't seem like we were at all interested in defending the interests of the minority at the time, something you've previously heralded as "American."

I'm sorry that you don't believe that women like Rosa Parks, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Susan B. Anthony did nothing to defend their freedom. Perhaps you'd have more respect for Ms. Parks if, instead of refusing to give up her seat on the bus, she physically assaulted the other riders.

Women are not exempt from the draft, they are denied access to it. This is a very important distinction that you don't seem too keen on making because it undermines everything you've written thus far. If a woman wanted to be conscripted, she could not be, both legally and as a matter of Department of Defense policy. These laws are based on archaic information from the last time a draft was instated - and subsequent laws using data from that time period as a reference. All reevaluations of the conscription laws and policies have cited these archaic court decisions as justification for continued denial of access to the draft for women.

Challenges of these laws and policies that have been taken to the courts go nowhere because they deal with the policies and practices of making and maintaining war - a responsibility afforded exclusively to the United States Congress as per our Constitution. Thus, courts have very little power in altering Congress' ability to deny women access to the draft and, as a result, the draft and military policies remain as they were created - nearly twenty five years ago.

Your argument, in short, is that because women are denied equality by law and by practice, they are undeserving of even the best effort toward achieving equality. It is disconnected and obtuse at best; truly incomprehensible at worst. The sexism of the generations that preceded us is no excuse for continued sexism among our generation. Because you deny someone some of their rights, you cannot use that as a legitimate excuse to deny them all of their rights.

Quote:
Why isn't there a feminist movement to allow women into the draft?
Feminism, as Lisa already mentioned, is often associated with anti-war and pro-peace movements. What little feminist discourse there is about feminism and conscription shows overwhelming support for equal inclusion, but often argues for mutual exclusion from the draft.

Quote:
Please, explain to me why I should be required to enganger [sic] my life for the country and you as a woman should not. Furthermore, explain why you believe you should be able to vote a person into office who might send the men of this country into a war while you sit at home.
Why should a Congress of men and women, each of whom are too old to be conscripted themselves, be able to call up a draft? They're not going to be doing much during a war except sitting around, too.

I defend my freedom by being sure that ignorance, sexism, discrimination and violence are challenged, questioned, noted, and stopped at every opportunity. Others can waste their time running around other countries chasing phantom threats with their machine guns and their tanks and their planes. I can see pretty clearly that there's plenty within our borders that needs to be defended against and I'm perfectly content earning my right to vote by making sure that people like you are consistently debunked, embarrassed, and stripped of any ability to hurt others.
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Last edited by Madison : 24-05-2004 at 21:02.
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Unread 24-05-2004, 22:48
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Re: Sexism and America

Purpose:
To illustrate the problems and perhaps future endeavors of the feminist movement in the United States. I will also explain why women should not participate in a representative government due to their lack of military responsibility in keeping the United States of America a free country.


Quote:
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protestor to burn the flag.

- Father Denis Edward O'Brien USMC
The United States of America was founded under the ideals that we will fight for our freedom. We have a paid military that receives compensation in various forms. The representative military carries out the will of all US citizens. In extreme times it is necessary to increase the size of the military by drafting citizens.

It's really quite simple- if we don't wage war on the evils of the world, we will lose our freedom. Therefore, at times we must increase the size of our standing army.

Currently the Selective Service System of the government only drafts men. The Department of Defense has said claimed that because of current policies to not allow women on the front combat lines, there is little in drafting them. Why aren't women attempting to obtain the right to register for the draft?

The feminist movement occurred very recently in our history, approximately 1971. During times in US history women were not allowed to own land, vote or hold public office. They fought hard for what they have achieved. Yet, why haven't they even attempted to argue for their ability to fulfill their military responsibility?

Ms. Perez has suggested that feminists haven't fought for more roles in military because feminists have historically been known to support peace. Unfortunately, the feminist all to easily forget that it's America's soldiers and war who have given them the rights they enjoy today.

The United States has a history of protecting those who are helpless or need assistance. It's the reason we helped Kuwait after being invaded by Iraq during the first Gulf War, or the reason we provide government funded care for people who are unable to care for themselves. Handicapped and most deficient people are required to register for the draft, but almost never serve. Would a woman argue that she is helpless and that's why she would qualify for the special privilege of not being drafted?

There is no reasonable reason for women to not register for a military draft. Therefore, you come to the following pop-culture phrase, “women like to have their cake and eat it too.” They want the positive benefits of a free society but none of the negatives, they'll leave that for the men.

I find it difficult to justify why women should have the right to vote or hold office, without accepting the military responsibility that comes with their freedom. I believe any person who joins the military should be commended, particularly women; including allowing those women the right to hold office or vote. They have accepted their military responsibility and should be allowed to participate in our representative government. Men, even if they have never served in the military accept their military responsibility by registering for the draft. Any man who does not register for the draft should not be allowed to participate in government.

In conclusion, with the liberties of becoming a United States citizen so does the responsibility. As a US citizen we have the responsibility to protect ourselves and the helpless. It's time for women to accept their military responsibility or lose their right to participate in government and accept that they are among the helpless.




Please note:
I don't personally believe what I just wrote. I don't think women should be forced into the serving the military, I also don't think they should lose their ability to participate in the government. My male instincts tell me women should not be forced into war, a “feeling from the heart” you could say. However, when you logicality evaluate the current circumstances, it makes me second-guess my instinct.
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Unread 24-05-2004, 23:00
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Re: Sexism and America

Again, this is all based on the assumption that the women think that they are "helpless" and therefore should not be included in the draft. This cannot be proven true UNLESS the opinion of solely the women is taken - and the only way to do this is to poll all women of draft conscription age in America.
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Unread 24-05-2004, 23:06
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Re: Sexism and America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa Perez
Again, this is all based on the assumption that the women think that they are "helpless" and therefore should not be included in the draft. This cannot be proven true UNLESS the opinion of solely the women is taken - and the only way to do this is to poll all women of draft conscription age in America.
True... the assumptian was made, by me at least, because feminists are not trying to lobby the government for inclusion into the draft. You are right in saying that a poll would have to be taken to determine if women think they are helpless.
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Unread 24-05-2004, 23:55
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Re: Sexism and America

So by supporting the peace movement, a woman may therefore be considered 'helpless' because she does not employ her Glock?

The fact that women are not required in the draft is only a recent subject. Historically, read about women's rights throughout the world, or hell, even watch some of the more recent movies to make the theatres: women did NOT always want to be left on the wayside. Moreover, I believe (and hey, this is just from observation of literature) that men did not want women on battlefields because they believed themselves to be superior. Men have started many wars, and men have finished them.

Now, you are polling to see if women are helpless - where does this fit in? There have been women throughout the ages, not just recently, that did not consider themselves helpless. It was only until the 1900's in a free and democratic society that women would be allowed to convene and agree to lobby for the vote. What you are even referring to is a time period where women who wore pants were considered corrupt... Their accomplishment, considering the social stigmas and the consequences from society at that time period, is amazing.

If you want a discussion about the draft, have a discussion about the draft. Especially if you are going to be the instigator, don't make this into a 'Mike hates that women have the vote' argument. You may not be trying to send that message at all, but the angry and ignorant ways you are expressing yourself are making you come off offensively. Maybe that IS your objective.
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Unread 25-05-2004, 00:08
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Re: Sexism and America

Staying on Topic: In my opinion, women should be just as eligible for the draft as men, however I don't believe in the draft in the first place.

To the Current Discussion: I don't see myself fighting for minors to be drafted, therefore should I not be properly represented by my government?
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Unread 25-05-2004, 00:40
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Re: Sexism and America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison
So by supporting the peace movement, a woman may therefore be considered 'helpless' because she does not employ her Glock?
No, it doesn't make her helpless. It does make her complacent to the reason she has the right to support a peace movement. The deaths of soldiers to fight for her freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison
Now, you are polling to see if women are helpless - where does this fit in?
Well the poll never mentioned women being helpless. It simply asked if women should be required to register for the draft.

The idea that women are helpless was an idea that I created in post #19. Personally, I don't believe they are helpless. However, if you don't support women registering for the draft, the logical reasoning behind it is probably because you think women are helpless. Can you think of another reason why women should not register for the draft? That viewpoint is offensive, and I am open for a change in my reasoning if someone could explain why it is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison
If you want a discussion about the draft, have a discussion about the draft. Especially if you are going to be the instigator, don't make this into a 'Mike hates that women have the vote' argument. You may not be trying to send that message at all, but the angry and ignorant ways you are expressing yourself are making you come off offensively. Maybe that IS your objective.
Yes, I am the instigator. I do occasionally enjoy taking a viewpoint on an argument for the sole purpose of seeing how effective I can argue it. I think I did a pretty decent job unless someone can explain in a reasonable manner, without personal attacks, and with actual points why women should not be required to register for the draft.

Like I said before, I don't actually believe that women should be denied the right to vote or hold office. However, consider the following scenario: the porche owners club is set to decide the name of the new porsche. The negative side of being in the porsche owners club is that you have to buy a porsche to join. Should someone's vote who is not part of the club be treated equally to someone who is not in the club? Club members would probably not enjoy having the same rights and voting power as someone not in the club. If you think about it, you can make a connection between that possoble scenario, and my arguement in post #19.

If I seem offensive, it's only because people don't like the truth. The truth is that women aren't required to register for the draft and the reasoning behind it is most likely prejudiced and many would find offensive. Or to reiiterate what I said before, are there any good reasons why women should not be required to register for the draft?
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Last edited by MikeDubreuil : 25-05-2004 at 01:20.
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Unread 25-05-2004, 01:56
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Re: Sexism and America

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHSJosh
To the Current Discussion: I don't see myself fighting for minors to be drafted, therefore should I not be properly represented by my government?
That's correct, you are not properly represented in goverment because you are a minor. When you turn 18, you will be properly represented when you are given the right to vote. Until then, you will be represented by men who have registered for the draft and women who are not required to.

Off-topic to this post, but an interesting article: Ann Quindlen: Women Should Have to Register for the Draft, Just Like Men
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Unread 25-05-2004, 02:51
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Re: Sexism and America

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Things such as the garbage you pollute on these boards, irrespective of which thread you post to, lead me to believe that you possess an ignorance that is both astounding and terrifying. Your misinformed, incorrect, damaging and hurtful "conclusions" are setting the progress of this organization back, wasting my time, and planting the seeds for continued sexism, discrimination and ridiculous, unnecessary discourse like that taking place in this thread.
It's always effective to start your argument by establishing your superiority with a personal attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
I am certain that you have no more tenable ideas regarding why women are somehow your inferior.
Let's throw in an assumption of my personal beliefs too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
It seems that for the purposes of defending your conclusion, defending one's freedom can only occur through the use of violence - taking up arms against those who are perceived to be a physical threat to the safety of our borders.
There's another assumption. I do not believe that the only way of defending a freedom is by the use of violence. Martin Luther King effectively faught for the rights of African Americans without using violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
I'm sorry that you don't believe that women like Rosa Parks, Harriet Beecher Stowe and Susan B. Anthony did nothing to defend their freedom.
I never said they didn't do anything to defend their freedom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Thus, comments such as those you made above, suggesting that women be denied equal rights seem perfectly logical and acceptable - even preferable - in your distorted view of reality.
Personal attack #2, without even having a valid point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
If a woman wanted to be conscripted, she could not be, both legally and as a matter of Department of Defense policy.
Perhaps she could not be conscripted, but she could voluntarily enlist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Perhaps you'd have more respect for Ms. Parks if, instead of refusing to give up her seat on the bus, she physically assaulted the other riders.
Obviously, Rosa Parks would not have been effective if she used violence. In the United States, violence is not an effective means of establishing a point. If Rosa Parks did what she did in other countries of the world she would have been dragged behind the bus. We are a civilized people, we logicly evaluate arguments. We use a representative goverment to maintian order in the country. Other countries use fear and violence to keep their citzens in check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Why should a Congress of men and women, each of whom are too old to be conscripted themselves, be able to call up a draft? They're not going to be doing much during a war except sitting around, too.
The men and women of Congress were put into place to represent their people, because they are much wiser than you or I. They have already served their time as possible draftees. You're not really suggesting that they shouldn't decide what we due with our military simply because they are too old or handicaped to participate are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Others can waste their time running around other countries chasing phantom threats with their machine guns and their tanks and their planes.
I don't think what happened on 9/11 was a phantom incident, do you? The United States is being targeted by terrorists, we must use all the power we have to stop them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
Challenges of these laws and policies that have been taken to the courts go nowhere because they deal with the policies and practices of making and maintaining war - a responsibility afforded exclusively to the United States Congress as per our Constitution. Thus, courts have very little power in altering Congress' ability to deny women access to the draft and, as a result, the draft and military policies remain as they were created - nearly twenty five years ago.
A valid point, so a court case could not change the draft, but electing the appropriate people into congress would. Doesn't congress represent the will of the people? Couldn't a feminist movement cause the members of congress to change the draft rules? If it could, why aren't we seeing that happen as talks of the first draft in the 21st century begin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M. Krass
I can see pretty clearly that there's plenty within our borders that needs to be defended against and I'm perfectly content earning my right to vote by making sure that people like you are consistently debunked, embarrassed, and stripped of any ability to hurt others.
OK, so you are earning your right to vote by personally attacking me on the CD forum. Fair enough, I'll earn my right to vote by registering for the draft, risking personal safety, and ensuring you have the liberty to embarass me.

You are a smart person and very elegant with your use of the English language (much more than I). If you want to make a valid argument, please explain to me why women should not be required to register for the draft. And if they should not, why they should still have the right to vote.
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Unread 25-05-2004, 04:58
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Re: Women and the Draft

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
I will also explain why women should not participate in a representative government due to their lack of military responsibility in keeping the United States of America a free country.
I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again. There are women in the armed services. Women do put their lives on the line to protect America, this isn’t some task that only men perform. Also, it’s not just the armed forces that continue to keep America free. I would argue that the House of Representatives (which passes the laws permitting military spending) and the percentage of the American public that votes regularly (since we elect our representatives to the House of Representatives) also keeps America free. I think that women are as responsible for America’s safety as the chauvinistic male population has allowed them to be. It’s not like women have been arguing to be kept off of the front lines in wars. I’m sure it has been the butch male dominated military brass that’s afraid of women / homosexuals proving themselves to be straight men’s equals in battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
It's really quite simple- if we don't wage war on the evils of the world, we will lose our freedom. Therefore, at times we must increase the size of our standing army.
Why is it that so many people only see violence and conflict as the answer to everything? Why don’t people look for the root of the “evil,” or what I think would more accurately be described as hatred or jealousy? The people who hate us have been raised in extremely poor conditions with very limited, sometimes false, and most likely biased (usually of the zealous religious kind) education. These people live off of less than each of us spends for our lunch drink per day. Why don’t we rectify this problem, and try to help give these poor people a decent education, proper nourishment, and at least a sleeping bag to sleep in. I strongly believe that if America would drastically increase funding for programs like the Peace Corps and AmeriCorps and give them this mission that in 100 years there will not be as much disdain for our country. Yes, America has donated $5 billion to African AIDS programs, but $5 billion is less than half of the annual contribution under the Clinton administration (President Bush has cut funding to programs that provide abortions and contraception instead of promoting abstinence). $5 billion dollars is also a drop in the bucket compared to America’s annual budget. If we remain the arrogant, greedy, and self-serving country that we are at the moment then we just allow this hatred to snowball even more and additionally endanger ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
The United States has a history of protecting those who are helpless or need assistance.
You’re mistaken. The American judicial system and United States Trustees codes have helped MBNA repossess my neighbor’s car because they extended him a line of credit to buy the Geo Metro knowing full well he couldn’t make the payments. <facetiousness>I guess it makes sense that people making less than $25,000 per year should have a line of credit more than twice that much</facetiousness>. The US Trustee refuses to accept that there is such a thing as “Predatory Lending,” just like President Bush isn’t convinced that Global Warming exists.

We may have helped some countries in need, but not because of some noble “people must be free” ideal. We have removed dictators and foreign armies because they do not fit into our plans. In the case of the Gulf War, given a choice between a Kuwaiti run Kuwait and an Iraqi run Kuwait, we chose a Kuwaiti government because they were more pro-American. Do we have a right to tell other countries who should rule them? I don’t think so. If we set the precedent of one country overthrowing another’s government then what’s preventing us from being on the receiving side of this treatment when our military isn’t “the strongest in the world?”

Being a world superpower, we have the ability to draw a moral line that clearly shows where we stand on how we treat other countries, how we treat prisoners of war, and how we treat everyone in general. It’s disgusting, saddening, and angering to see Americans being beheaded, burned, and mutilated on television and in other media, but we need to show ourselves to be better than that. We need to give our prisoners food, toilets, and a FAIR AND PUBLIC trial with access to attorneys. Treating others the way they treat us gets us nowhere. We must earn the respect of the world by having more humane procedures and treatments of our prisoners. For example, if we continue to abuse Iraqis then what right do we have to ask China or North Korea to stop their human rights abuses? <edit>We should never settle for just treating others only how they treat us. Despite the atrocities commited against us there is no justification for "sinking to their level"</edit>. We need to show the utmost respect to the rest of the world. The job of stamping out hatred in the third world is a job that would take forever if we tried it alone. We need the blessing and assistance, monetary and personnel, of other superpowers (England, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, China, Japan, Canada, and Australia) to accomplish this daunting goal within the next 100 or 200 years. We can’t afford to piss them off more than we already have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
I believe any person who joins the military should be commended, particularly women; including allowing those women the right to hold office or vote. They have accepted their military responsibility and should be allowed to participate in our representative government. Men, even if they have never served in the military accept their military responsibility by registering for the draft. Any man who does not register for the draft should not be allowed to participate in government.
Registering for the draft during a time without a draft does no more to serve your country than not registering. There is no draft. There will not be a draft in the foreseeable future. What if there was a draft and your number and my number weren’t called? We didn’t serve our country in battle, yet you would argue that we should be allowed to retain our right to vote. The only guaranteed way to serve your country in battle is to volunteer for the armed forces (and that’s assuming we’ve decided to go topple a country or are still in the process or occupying one). You and I are in no more jeopardy of being impressed into the armed services than Lisa Perez, Amanda Morrison, LauraN, a breezy era, or any of the other women on these boards. You and I shouldn’t have more rights as a citizen than these politically passionate women. If so, then we’re starting multiple castes of American citizenship. How will that work? One pays taxes, another one doesn’t, one has mandatory military service, another doesn’t, one can vote, another can’t, one can work for the FBI, and another can’t? What’s next? Will one caste be allowed to procreate, and another not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
…feminists are not trying to lobby the government for inclusion into the draft.
I wouldn’t make that assumption. There are many lobbies in Washington D.C. that aren’t publicized very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
I think I did a pretty decent job unless someone can explain in a reasonable manner, without personal attacks, and with actual points why women should not be required to register for the draft.
I’m not arguing that women should be prevented from being drafted. I think most of us believe that men and women should be treated equally. I do take exception to your assertion that because women are not registered to be drafted that they should not have the right to vote or hold elected office. Why should men who have not been drafted or otherwise served in the military have the right to vote and hold elected office and women who haven’t been drafted be excluded? Is it because we filled out some form that they didn’t?

Another point I’d like to bring up is that many of our best, and the world’s best, politicians and philosophers did not serve in the military. Should we exclude these people from being able to serve our country in their more natural capacity because they didn’t first serve it with a weapon? Inclusion of ideas is much better than exclusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
…the porche owners club is set to decide the name of the new porsche. The negative side of being in the porsche owners club is that you have to buy a porsche to join. Should someone's vote who is not part of the club be treated equally to someone who is not in the club? Club members would probably not enjoy having the same rights and voting power as someone not in the club.
Porsche is a privately owned company. The club doesn't decide on the names. Not even the shareholders decide on the names. I don’t think your analogy works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
If I seem offensive, it's only because people don't like the truth.
Mike, I think that was a little out of line. First of all, there is no truth in your argument because it’s opinion. Truth has to do with correct or falseness. People may think you’re offensive because they don’t like your opinions. This is not the same as not liking the truth. Saying that people might be offended at what you you’ve said because they don’t like the truth makes you sound much more arrogant than I think you intended. I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean to sound like that when you originally wrote that, but I think a little double checking word selection is in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
Perhaps she could not be conscripted, but she could voluntarily enlist.
So could you. So could I. We haven’t (at least I don’t think you have). How are we serving our country more than a woman who hasn’t voluntarily enlisted? We aren’t.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
We use a representative goverment to maintian order in the country. Other countries use fear and violence to keep their citzens in check.
The US government has done its fair share of using fear and violence against its citizens to keep them in check. Japanese Internment camps? Kent State? There are many examples that can counter that statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
The men and women of Congress were put into place to represent their people, because they are much wiser than you or I. They have already served their time as possible draftees. You're not really suggesting that they shouldn't decide what we due with our military simply because they are too old or handicaped to participate are you?
First of all, no, not all congresspersons are smarter than us. Don’t ever assume that people in high places are smarter than you and know what they’re doing. Each congressperson is directly elected by their district, which means that just about anyone with name recognition could win a House district.

Yes they have lived past their draftable days. But again, if they (men) didn’t serve in the armed forces then they haven’t served their country anymore than a woman of the same age. If you only want people who have been draftable in office then President Bush would certainly have his right to vote taken away (since he was enlisted in the National Guard at the time. Btw, the National Guard during the Vietnam War was a way of AVOIDING combat; not volunteering ahead of conscripts like it is today.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeDubreuil
Fair enough, I'll earn my right to vote by registering for the draft, risking personal safety, and ensuring you have the liberty to embarass me.
We haven’t been conscripted yet, and there’s a very, very, very, very slim chance we ever will be. At this moment we are as much in harms way as the women of this country who aren’t already in the armed forces. You and I aren’t protecting anyone’s way of life other than by exchanging our ideas (which is a much underrated form of protecting our country). The only way you and I have earned our votes is by virtue of turning 18 and registering ourselves, the same way women earn theirs. It’s the law we live by, and there’s almost no chance of it changing.

Last edited by Bill Gold : 26-05-2004 at 02:57. Reason: <edit>...</edit>
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Unread 25-05-2004, 06:42
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Re: Women and the Draft

I apologize for my use of wordage in post 20 . I did not mean it all to seem like we were polling America to determine whether or not women were "helpless", but rather, if the women felt they should not be involved in conscription, in general. I, as a female, would never create a poll which asked the general public if we were helpless - sorry for the confusion, not good at this word thing.
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Unread 25-05-2004, 09:25
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Re: Women and the Draft

As long as we're on the subject of an effective goverment, and the role of women within that effective government, I'd like to show you a few links. (Warning: there may be a few disturbing images.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3731081.stm

I'd like to point out that these terrible images of abuse in the prisons of Iraq do, in fact, show women. I'm stating this mainly because there are women in the military - we've been treating this issue as if every girl just got up and left her camoflage behind. There are women in the military, doing the same exact things as men do (and hopefully being tried for it, also). Were these women drafted? No. There's a pretty good chance that these men weren't, either. The draft hasn't been instated since 1973, and since then, we've been to war. In fact, in this article (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...042304,00.html), they'd rather do away with the draft than have to send people needlessly away to war.

Now, as much as I resented comments about the peace movement, I couldn't believe that the main reason given was that the Women's Movement was supported by the 'soldiers who fight for their freedom'. I suppose that, in that time period, was very much the case - we are still a relatively new country, but we now know our boundaries and limits. I'd like to bring forth a small reminder:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0800/...0801_0135.html

WWII was a terrible, brutal war. The women of that time period, having only had the vote for a few years, were enlisted in their own way. Through propaganda and media, the government chose not to draft women, but to put them to use in America, rather than also suffer their lives. Instead, the economy shot through the roof, and almost singlehandedly, American women kept the country alive and running. I still remember hearing stories of my grandmother going to work in the steel mills in her teens.

Where the government could have employed the draft to women (and note that this was after the Women's Movement had already gained fair representation and the vote), they instead gave them the lightweight task of keeping a country moving. The ammunitions, the textiles, even the rations that were given to the soldiers at that time were possibly products from an American woman's second or third job.
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Last edited by Amanda Morrison : 25-05-2004 at 15:31. Reason: correcting my own grammar?! UGH!
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Unread 25-05-2004, 12:38
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Re: Women and the Draft

May I make one very very simple request?

For the sake of this not ending up screwed (it's getting there), please please please EVERYONE refrain from personal attacks. The best things that I've read so far are people replying with information and justification, not the personal attacks. Those just stick out and look foolish and unnecessary. If we can't avoid personal attacks on a forum populated by far less than 1% of the national population, on a post followed by less than 1% of even that, how can we except people at any national level to avoid attacking one another in the name of pride? Yes, it's unrelated to the subject, but I think it needs to be said. I apologize myself if I offended anyone, I had no intention of doing so.
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