New FIRST logo

[sanddrag]

On the old one, the blue seems a bit too dark. On the new one, the red seems a slight bit too light. Adjusting the red to the old shade, I like the new logo.

[suneel112]

There isn't a realistic difference.

All I know is that I can't sell next year's robot without permission from Dean Kamen.
jk, you know i wouldn't do that!!

[miketwalker]

I like the new one. However, I do like the fancy ones they make occasionally much better (I've seen it used a few years ago... as well as Rob said with this year's kickoff.... I wish they would do something like that...) My guess for why they don't use the fancy one as the "Official" one is because it costs more money for the shadow and gradients when printing stuff out... plus doesn't go well into greyscale for printing in that form.

[Carol]

The SM stands for service mark. It is a type of trademark that indicates the source of the service and to distinguish it from the services of others. A service mark is the same as a trademark except that it identifies and distinguishes the source of a service rather than a product. The R means that the trademark is registered (with the US Patent and Trademark Office). It isn't necessary to register a trademark but it does give you more legal protection both in this country, and more importantly, overseas.

[dez250]

maybe this is a good time to remind everyone one what can and cant be done to the logo.

"Please note that the FIRST logo is a registered trademark with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Trademark protection does not allow the logo/trademark to be altered, cut apart, or separated in any way. The logo may be resized, but must maintain the same proportions. The background color may be changed (for example, to incorporate the logo on a website with a background color other than white or to match the color of an article of clothing)."

[mtrawls]

And, to educated people about both sides of the law ...

Of course, with fair use and free speech, you can do some of those things under certain conditions. For instance, if I were unhappy with FIRST and wanted to express my disgust, I could certainly have the "rings" entrap Kamen, Flowers, and, oh let's say Lavery ... and then change the FIRST to some sort of unsavory expression best left unmentioned. So long as I'm not trying to impersonate FIRST, or would not give the average, reasonable person that impression, then free speech is a wonderful thing. Remember, the word "Microsoft" is a registered trademark, -- but you certainly don't have to get written permission to use the word, either in praise or disgust (so long as the use isn't to sell software). And you can do whatever you want to the word, nearly, because of free speech/fair use. (Of course, this is assuming you're not a business trying to make a profit from the use and you're not trying to defraud anyone. Trademark law can be quite the nebulous area, so the best advice is to be careful and not take advice from people unaware of the subject, -- like me, for instance.)

(For the record, I would never do a thing such as I have described. I just don't have the artistic talent )

[David Kelly]

Originally Posted by mtrawls

And, to educated people about both sides of the law ...

Of course, with fair use and free speech, you can do some of those things under certain conditions. For instance, if I were unhappy with FIRST and wanted to express my disgust, I could certainly have the "rings" entrap Kamen, Flowers, and, oh let's say Lavery ... and then change the FIRST to some sort of unsavory expression best left unmentioned. So long as I'm not trying to impersonate FIRST, or would not give the average, reasonable person that impression, then free speech is a wonderful thing. Remember, the word "Microsoft" is a registered trademark, -- but you certainly don't have to get written permission to use the word, either in praise or disgust (so long as the use isn't to sell software). And you can do whatever you want to the word, nearly, because of free speech/fair use. (Of course, this is assuming you're not a business trying to make a profit from the use and you're not trying to defraud anyone. Trademark law can be quite the nebulous area, so the best advice is to be careful and not take advice from people unaware of the subject, -- like me, for instance.)

(For the record, I would never do a thing such as I have described. I just don't have the artistic talent )

Actually, you do not have permission to change the logo in any manner you want to. Free speech does not apply to changing a logo to degrade someone or an organization. If you look in the 2004 Communications section of the competition manual it says:

2.13 USING THE FIRST LOGO

We encourage teams to develop and promote team identity. It is a great way to help FIRST judges, announcers, and audiences recognize your team at the competitions, and it is also a way to help you create a "buzz" about your team in your community.

You have incredibly creative opportunities in terms of designing your own identity. Every year we see great examples of how teams "brand" their efforts with websites, incredible team logos on robots, t-shirts, hats, banners, fliers, and giveaways.

These branding activities are a wonderful way to include students from art, communications, computer, and language arts classes in your team effort. As you manage your own promotion, you may want to incorporate the FIRST logo in what you do. Because our mark is registered, both name and the geometric logo, we have a few guidelines for you to follow when using the FIRST logo:

Positive Promotion:

Use our logo in a manner that is positive and promotes FIRST.

Unmodified:

Use the FIRST logo without modification. This means that you will use our name and the circle, square, and triangle as you see it on our website or letterhead. You can use it in red, blue, and white, or in black and white.

Modification Permission:

If you have an interest in modifying our logo, do that only when you receive our permission.

FIRST is happy to talk with you about modifications after you submit a written request letting us know why you want to modify the logo; how you plan to do it, and where you plan to apply it.

Send an e-mail request to Ken Freitas, kfreitas@usfirst.org, Marketing and Promotion.

Advertising Use Approval:

All Teams and sponsors must obtain approval from FIRST prior to incorporating our logo in any advertising. E-mail requests to

Ken Freitas for approval, by e-mail

kfreitas@usfirst.org or by phone at 800-871-8326 #410.

The major thing FIRST is saying is that

A. You must use the logo in a manner that is positive to the image of FIRST

B. If you do want to modify the logo, you must gain written permission from FIRST.

Saying that you can change the FIRST logo (of any other logo of a company or organization) because of freedom of speech is quite a lame excuse. Infact, it is against the law, and is the reason that we have the registered trademarks etc in the first place.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Actually, you do not have permission to change the logo in any manner you want to. Free speech does not apply to changing a logo to degrade someone or an organization.

Annoying as it may be, under U.S. law (more specifically, case law), most parody is protected. For example, this is allowed:


(From Copley News Service)

A higher standard than "degradation" is necessary to judge infringement; notably, the unsanctioned user should not associate a trademark with something obscene, nor should they confuse potential customers by using a mark. To do as mtrawls described, it would likely not be infringement, provided that it wasn't being used to promote another FIRST-like organization, and provided that the "expression" (in lieu of "FIRST") wasn't an obscene word or phrase.

See here and here, for examples.

By quoting the rulebook, you are referring to things that FIRST doesn't like--but can't enforce outside of the competition. They would be within their rights to place sanctions on a team that violated the rules--but a random citizen would not be bound by these regulations.

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Saying that you can change the FIRST logo (of any other logo of a company or organization) because of freedom of speech is quite a lame excuse. Infact, it is against the law, and is the reason that we have the registered trademarks etc in the first place.

It is therefore neither against the law, nor lame. You have a First Amendment for a reason.

[mtrawls]

To add to what Tristan said, the reason for the harsh warning from FIRST is quite understandable when you realize that if they do not seek to actively enforce their trademark, then they lose it. I.e., if they allow one person to use it in an unauthorized way (which isn't fair use), then they are showing that they don't care to keep it and it will be open to everyone.

Also, you must remember a very important concept called "Fair use." Granted, the RIAA or MPAA won't be talking about this (they'd prefer it didn't exist) ... but try to think of what life would be like without it. I'll refrain from Orwellian tales, for now, -- but, as said, the first amendment is in no way lame, and remember that a major reason we allow companies to have trademarks is to protect consumers. For a further reference, see Wikipedia:Trademark.

Free speech does not apply to changing a logo to degrade someone or an organization.

Oh, and degradation is actually a very difficult thing to prove in the US, -- especially when applied to famous people or organizations (as opposed to the average joe). If FIRST would try to press the issue, it would be on pure trademark law. Again, as said, parody is a very typical defense in these cases. Lame or not, us Americans like our free speech it seems

[JoeXIII'007]

The 'new' logo is technically brighter red and brighter blue than the other 'old' logo which looks like it was scanned on a very old scanner.

As for choice, I like the 'new' logo. It's quite nice.

[tiffany34990]

i say it's nice logo--FIRST will always be FIRST to me as long it's the triangle, circle, square deal-- it's all good

enjoy y'all

[winterfairy100]

I like the new one...but I don't think the red is any brighter. I just think the darker shading makes it look brighter. I do think the blue is brighter though...

[Vin211]

I have always said, never mess with a classic but who says that maybe the classic should be altered?

Why not offer both?! They do it for Ford Mustangs!

[Barry Bonzack]

FIRST is FIRST. The logo is and always has been great. I do like making the SM into a small R though, so i am a very slight lean to the new one. By the way, im sure this has been discussed before, but what does the triangle-circle-square stand for? I'm sure there is some meaning behind it, I'd like to know why this logo was chosen and how it was thought of if anyone knows. thanky.

[dk5sm5luigi]

I don't understand how people didn't notice the difference. The first time I saw the difference it stuck right out at me. Maybe seeing the logo for the past 8 years has left an imprint in my brain. Well I definatly like the old one better.