Kerry or Bush and why?

[Marc P.]

I'll preface by saying I usually stay away from political discussion, if not for fear of getting criticized, for the fear of knowing that there is no single right answer to any given political question. So before this thread gets locked for turning into a flame war, I'll post my thoughts.

I'm planning on voting for Kerry.

My cousin signed up with the US Marine Corps last year. Early this year he was sent on his tour of duty in Afghanistan. I just heard not too long ago that he was pulled to Iraq. I'll tell you it sucks listening to the radio or reading a newspaper, hearing about casualties over there, hoping to whatever religious entity that I don't hear or see his name.

I don't know much more about Kerry than I read online, on forums like this, or the various slanted news sites. But since Bush is the current president, I hear about what he's up much more than Kerry. I can understand retaliation for 9/11, but where did the focus for that go? Last I heard Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. Now he's hiding in some cave, while we have Saddam in custody. Did I miss a confirmed connection somewhere? I remember watching Bush address the nation when he first declared we were at war with Iraq, and I remember mention of weapons of mass destruction, and a connection to Al Quieda. The only things I've seen/heard/read since then indicate none of it was true, despite "very convincing evidence" prior to the war. Now my cousin is over there as a result of some lies.

Going into the voting booth, I see two choices. On the one hand, there's a man who has already lied to me, and the American public. On the other, there's a man who has the potential to lie to me, and the American public. In my eyes, the one who has already lied has already betrayed my trust, and is therefore unworthy of my vote. I could vote Nader, but in the two party system, that's as good as not voting at all. Therefore, the only logical candidate is the one who's yet to lie to me. Should he lie in office, I'll vote against him next term.

It's very rare in my life that my logical side and personal/emotional side agree on something. In this particular instance, I've read positives and negatives on both Bush and Kerry, moreso on the negative side for Bush, in addition to my personal feelings. That means there's only one way I can vote, unless Kerry does something in the next few months to disuade my trust towards the unknown candidate.

[Adam Y.]

I don't know much more about Kerry than I read online, on forums like this, or the various slanted news sites. But since Bush is the current president, I hear about what he's up much more than Kerry. I can understand retaliation for 9/11, but where did the focus for that go? Last I heard Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. Now he's hiding in some cave, while we have Saddam in custody. Did I miss a confirmed connection somewhere? I remember watching Bush address the nation when he first declared we were at war with Iraq, and I remember mention of weapons of mass destruction, and a connection to Al Quieda. The only things I've seen/heard/read since then indicate none of it was true, despite "very convincing evidence" prior to the war. Now my cousin is over there as a result of some lies.

Actually US troops were attacked with Sarin gas recently with one of those roadside bombs. In fact it's got to be mentioned somewhere here.

It never said "The only president" it said "Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history."

That's a matter of opinion. He isn't the worst. Trust me on that one. There is one president that ended up ignoring the supreme court to do the equivalent of stealing land.

[Jack Jones]

Bush

1. There is nothing wrong with our economy – except in the eyes of those who traditionally add nothing to it.

2. Right now there are an estimated 5,000 insurgents who've crawled out from under their rocks and are raising hell in Iraq. I wonder where they'd be raising hell were it not for GWB. I am sure that, unless we adopt the French-ativities, they will run out of bad guys way before we run out of bullets.

3. UBL is either dead or hiding in a cave, as are tens of thousands of Taliban and Al Qaeda. Meanwhile, Afghan women are allowed an education. Afghans are about to vote. Libya has admitted to their WMD’s. Iran is blowing smoke. Etc. and ect.

4. Eleven years (1776 - 1787) passed between our Declaration of Independence and the signing of the Constitution. Today, we have Kerry-ites complaining about some kind of quagmire.

5. Kerry’s mentor/fellow_Taxsachusetts_Senator/supporter, who drove his secretary off a Chappaquidick bridge and (opinion) left her there to drown while his toadies planned the cover-up (/opinion), has the gall to question the President’s character.

6. When the Vietnam vets returned, they were spit upon by the ignorant at the airports and by Kerry in the Senate.

7. I was in high school when JFK got us into Vietnam. I was in a barracks in Gulfport, Mississippi when LBJ appeared on TV and bailed on us. I was in my living room last month as Kerry “appeared for duty”, but ran away from his record in the Senate. So, I’ve seen the Democrats show up, and then I’ve seen them run away.

8. Who would Osama vote for?

[Joshua May]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

1. There is nothing wrong with our economy – except in the eyes of those who traditionally add nothing to it.

Massive debt, many areas ravaged by unemployment, sounds like economic problems to me.

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

2. Right now there are an estimated 5,000 insurgents who've crawled out from under their rocks and are raising hell in Iraq. I wonder where they'd be raising hell were it not for GWB. I am sure that, unless we adopt the French-ativities, they will run out of bad guys way before we run out of bullets.

If not for Bush's invasion, they'd be living in Iraq, not shooting at Americans, who wouldn't be there. A vast majority are only "raising hell" because of the occupation. We're already low on bullets, and you will never run out of "bad guys". Terrorism is a tactic and an idea, and cannot be overtly destroyed, especially not by force.

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

4. Eleven years (1776 - 1787) passed between our Declaration of Independence and the signing of the Constitution. Today, we have Kerry-ites complaining about some kind of quagmire.

That was also before the Industrial and Information Revolutions. Things move much faster now. I know that things can't be done overnight, but you also have to understand that American's fought their own revolution. Were an Islamic country to invade America to relieve us of the Bush Regime, I'm sure there would be a mass insurgency and there would be a quagmire. You have to look at the times and the culture before relating things.

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

5. Kerry’s mentor/fellow_Taxsachusetts_Senator/supporter, who drove his secretary off a Chappaquidick bridge and (opinion) left her there to drown while his toadies planned the cover-up (/opinion), has the gall to gall to question the President’s character.

Yes, Teddy Kennedy has made grave mistakes in his past, as have Bush and his "toadies."

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

6. When the Vietnam vets returned, they were spit upon by the ignorant at the airports and by Kerry in the Senate.

Kerry did his duty to his country by reporting atrocities that happened during Vietnam. It is not his fault if people took his testimony ignorantly, but he was in fact supported by many, many vets against the war. Because he favors peace over war certainly does not make him a bad person, in fact, it makes him better that many.

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

7. I was in high school when JFK got us into Vietnam. I was in a barracks in Gulfport, Mississippi when LBJ appeared on TV and bailed on us. I was in my living room last month as Kerry “appeared for duty”, but ran away from his record in the Senate. So, I’ve seen the Democrats show up, and then I’ve seen them run away.

What parts of his record are you referring to?

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

8. Who would Osama vote for?

Osama hates all Americans. He wants all of America to leave the Middle East. I believe you are under the assumption that Osama would vote for Kerry, and even if so, does that make Kerry a bad man? Does that make Kerry unfit for the presidency?

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Joshua May

Massive debt, many areas ravaged by unemployment, sounds like economic problems to me.?

The National debt under Clinton rose from ~32T dollars to ~58T dollars, almost doubled. The deficit spending did end in his final year or so, but that contributed to a spike of 4T under Bush because essential spending had been gutted. The aftermath of nine-eleven accounts for much of the rest.

The U.S. unemployment rate has dropped to 5.6 percent, lower than the average during the 1990s. Growth is a robust 4 percent; inflation is low (partly because trade depresses prices). The Manufacturing Index is at its highest level since 1983.

Kerry claims he’ll reward corporations who keep jobs here, or return them from overseas. His family should get in line first for that bonus; H.J. Heinz Co. operates 22 factories in the United States and 57 in foreign countries.

Research estimates are that outsourced jobs will rise to 600,000 by 2005 -- out of a total of 140 million. Most all of those jobs are the ones that Americans find “dead end”. The companies save money, which they use to create more of the kinds of jobs that Americans will lower themselves to work.

Back to deficit spending: If the Democrats get their European style national health care, then you ain’t seen nothing yet! And, as educated persons with the high-end jobs, they won’t care much to stand in line behind the crack heads. The Republicanism of tort reform is the only logical solution (sorry Jeffery Figer, etal) to our health care dilemma. My wife has worked at a hospital for over 30 years, and has never seen them turn anyone away. No, they don’t have right to get in first-come-first served, but they do get in.

As for the rest: If someone thinks we can negotiate with terrorists, then they can do so at their front door. If they think the Europeans will assist us without exacting way more than a pound of economic flesh, then they have no sense of history. If they think the Syrians, Saudis, Iranians, and Afghans who poured over the borders to disrupt the democratization of Iraq would otherwise be asleep in their comfy little beds, then I remind them of the 19 who were in sleeper cells until they day they went to Paradise.

Originally Posted by Joshua May

Osama hates all Americans. He wants all of America to leave the Middle East. I believe you are under the assumption that Osama would vote for Kerry, and even if so, does that make Kerry a bad man? Does that make Kerry unfit for the presidency.

On the contrary, I believe that Osama would vote for Bush - because Osama wants a fight. I believe he should get that fight, because his ultimate goal is not for us to leave the Middle East, but to leave the planet.

We could leave the Middle East - sit back and watch them tear themselves to pieces - where Osama goes, Muslims die. Then, with but one tribe left standing, we could settle it for once and for all. But that would mean the death of Islam, or the death all the other faiths. I'd rather see us attack the cancer than erradicate the afflicted.

[Joe Matt]

20 Reasons Why Bush Is Bad:

By 'Rock Against Bush' Alblum...

1.) He refused to buy adequate body armor for our troops in Iraq. A study done by a defense consultant reveals that approximately 25% of casualties could have been prevented with better armor.

2.) Responsible for the highest US trade deficit EVER: $43.1 billion dollars.

3.) Bush Jr. gave his campaign contributors and strongest supporters $8 billion in contracts to rebuild Iraq and Afghanistan. Corporations like Halliburton, Bechtel, Kellogg, Brown & Root, etc. Numerous scandals have been uncovered regarding these "friendly" contractors who are ripping off US tax-payers by overcharging for their services.

4.) Bush campaign shirts were made in Burma under sweatshop conditions. Interestingly enough, in 2003 Bush Jr. signed legislation banning products from Burma effective September 1st, 2003.

5.) He approved the sale of $20 million dollars worth of shackles, electro-shock technology, and other torture devices to countries that have been CONDEMNED FOR TORTURE.

6.) College tuition has increased 28% during the Bush Jr. administration.

7.) The Bush Jr. administration was told by over 60 influential scientists, including 20 Nobel Prize winners, that they are "Deliberately and systematically distorting facts- in the service of policy goals on the environment, health, biomedical research, and nuclear weaponry at home and aborad."

8.) He proposed a budget that would slash 40% of the funding for after-school programs. No child left behnind? THis decrease would cut off about 475,000 children.

9.) Bush Jr. authorized the use of cluster bombs and "Daisy Cutters" (the world's biggest non-nuclear bomb) in populated areas of Iraq. These have contributed to the deaths of OVER 10,000 innocent civilians, more than three times the number of casualties suffered in the tragic 9/11 attacks.
NOTE: No Iraqis were involved in the 9/11 attacks.

10.) Richard Clarke (Chief Anti-Terrorism Advisor) and Paul O'Neilll (US Treasury Secretary) both testified that Bush Jr. was intent on invading Iraq within the first few days of his Presidency. Clarke claims that Bush Jr. ignored his warnings about an imminent al Qaeda attack. On September 12th, Bush Jr. instructed his staff to find a connection between al Qaeda and Iraq, and despite no connection ever being discovered (and against CIA's recomendation), he still chose to invade Iraq.
NOTE: This has been confirmed by the 9/11 Commission.

11.) Although he still claims that fighting terrorism is his main priority, Bush Jr. slashed the FBI's requested counterterrorism budget by two-thirds.

12.) Bush Jr. has made it clear that in his next term he plans to appoint Supremem Court Judges who are against a woman's right to choose, and would effectively outlaw abortion on a NATIONAL level.

13.) Bush Jr. still has yet to attend a soldier's funeral and continues to steer the American public away from knowing about the casualties. He has done even less to acknowledge the over 18,000 troops that have been wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan.

14.) His administration illegally produced fake pro-Bush "news" spots for the Department of Health and Human Services. They went as far as to include phony journalists who praise Dubya's controversial Medicare Bill and they added a fake crowd to cheer the whole thing on.

15.) In an effort to give the appearane that Bush Jr. was creating more jobs, his administration tried to reclassify fast food emplyment as manufacturing jobs. These minimum wage jobs are nothing like real manufacturing jobs that provide benefits and pay $15/hour.

16.) His administration proposed the highest penalties in the world for indecent violations on our public airwaves. Up to $500,000 for saying something the FCC (which the public dosn't elect to office) deems offensive.

17.) He is a religious fanatic that belives in the apocalypes and that ONLY Evangelical Christians are eligible for the afterlife. Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, and everyone that isn't in the Bush's flock are all doomed to Hell.

18.) The Treasury Department under the Bush Jr. assigned five times as many agents to investigate Cuban embargo violations as they did to track the financial resources of both Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

19.) Right before Christmas Bush Jr. cut overtime pay for over 644,000 employees who work over 40 ours a week.

20.) Against Colin Powell's advice, Bush Jr. chose not to recognize Afghanistan's statehood, therefor making it's people not protected by International Law and vulnerable to human rights abuses and torture. Up until that decision by Bush Jr., the US Military could boast a proud history of upholding the humane laws of the Geneva Convention.

Spread the news....

[Joshua May]

Originally Posted by JosephM

10.) Richard Clarke (Chief Anti-Terrorism Advisor) and Paul O'Neilll (US Treasury Secretary) both testified that Bush Jr. was intent on invading Iraq within the first few days of his Presidency...
NOTE: This has been confirmed by the 9/11 Commission.

Just to add to this point, a "thinktank" was formed before Bush went into office with the goals of creating plans and strategies to invade Iraq. This thinktank included Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld. Bush and his administration was intent on invading Iraq well before 9/11, and used 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Joshua May

Just to add to this point, a "thinktank" was formed before Bush went into office with the goals of creating plans and strategies to invade Iraq. This thinktank included Paul Wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld. Bush and his administration was intent on invading Iraq well before 9/11, and used 9/11 and terrorism as an excuse.

Think tanks don't make plans, they entertain contingencies. Nice conspiracy theory though. OMG, maybe they'll get hold of this thread and entertain the thought that FIRST has become subversive.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by JosephM

20 Reasons Why Bush Is Bad:

By 'Rock Against Bush' Alblum...

Your distinguished panel of experts.

Wow, 20 reasons.
I thought they had it covered with "Idiot Son of an (expletive deleted)"

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Your distinguished panel of experts.

Wow, 20 reasons.
I thought they had it covered with "Idiot Son of an (expletive deleted)"

Well, I only have the second alblum, so it's 20. There is a whole 40 more on the first one.

[Matt Attallah]

Hey now - this is getting a little ugly here...

Lets get this back on track ASAP before it's locked...

[RudimentaryPeni]

Neither Kerry nor Bush, Ralph Nadar is the real ticket this year. He is not greedy, he cares about what happens to not only this country, but what happens to the whole world. Not just the people in the world, but the physical world itself. He is going to enforce such laws that will limit large corporations that pollute the environment and that will limit the green house effect that has plagued the world, and it's only getting worse. Find all of his views at Vote Nadar

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Well, I only have the second alblum, so it's 20. There is a whole 40 more on the first one.

I find is hillarious that people base their views around a punk rock band, and a bad one at that.

[Joshua May]

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux

I find is hillarious that people base their views around a punk rock band, and a bad one at that.

Actually, there are many bands, including Bruce Springstein and the Dixie Chicks. And I really don't think that JosephM's political views are centralized around his musical tastes, but maybe it is the other way around.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Joshua May

Actually, there are many bands, including Bruce Springstein and the Dixie Chicks. And I really don't think that JosephM's political views are centralized around his musical tastes, but maybe it is the other way around.

I wasn't specifying Joseph. I was more surprised that NOFX bashes so much, and you know there are people out there basing their views entirely around their music.

Whatever happened to that good ole' Rock N' Roll?