Kerry or Bush and why?

[Marc P.]

I'll preface by saying I usually stay away from political discussion, if not for fear of getting criticized, for the fear of knowing that there is no single right answer to any given political question. So before this thread gets locked for turning into a flame war, I'll post my thoughts.

I'm planning on voting for Kerry.

My cousin signed up with the US Marine Corps last year. Early this year he was sent on his tour of duty in Afghanistan. I just heard not too long ago that he was pulled to Iraq. I'll tell you it sucks listening to the radio or reading a newspaper, hearing about casualties over there, hoping to whatever religious entity that I don't hear or see his name.

I don't know much more about Kerry than I read online, on forums like this, or the various slanted news sites. But since Bush is the current president, I hear about what he's up much more than Kerry. I can understand retaliation for 9/11, but where did the focus for that go? Last I heard Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. Now he's hiding in some cave, while we have Saddam in custody. Did I miss a confirmed connection somewhere? I remember watching Bush address the nation when he first declared we were at war with Iraq, and I remember mention of weapons of mass destruction, and a connection to Al Quieda. The only things I've seen/heard/read since then indicate none of it was true, despite "very convincing evidence" prior to the war. Now my cousin is over there as a result of some lies.

Going into the voting booth, I see two choices. On the one hand, there's a man who has already lied to me, and the American public. On the other, there's a man who has the potential to lie to me, and the American public. In my eyes, the one who has already lied has already betrayed my trust, and is therefore unworthy of my vote. I could vote Nader, but in the two party system, that's as good as not voting at all. Therefore, the only logical candidate is the one who's yet to lie to me. Should he lie in office, I'll vote against him next term.

It's very rare in my life that my logical side and personal/emotional side agree on something. In this particular instance, I've read positives and negatives on both Bush and Kerry, moreso on the negative side for Bush, in addition to my personal feelings. That means there's only one way I can vote, unless Kerry does something in the next few months to disuade my trust towards the unknown candidate.

[Adam Y.]

I don't know much more about Kerry than I read online, on forums like this, or the various slanted news sites. But since Bush is the current president, I hear about what he's up much more than Kerry. I can understand retaliation for 9/11, but where did the focus for that go? Last I heard Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. Now he's hiding in some cave, while we have Saddam in custody. Did I miss a confirmed connection somewhere? I remember watching Bush address the nation when he first declared we were at war with Iraq, and I remember mention of weapons of mass destruction, and a connection to Al Quieda. The only things I've seen/heard/read since then indicate none of it was true, despite "very convincing evidence" prior to the war. Now my cousin is over there as a result of some lies.

Actually US troops were attacked with Sarin gas recently with one of those roadside bombs. In fact it's got to be mentioned somewhere here.

It never said "The only president" it said "Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history."

That's a matter of opinion. He isn't the worst. Trust me on that one. There is one president that ended up ignoring the supreme court to do the equivalent of stealing land.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by MattK

This is on topic, I showed why I was not voting for bush (the resume) and you were picking it apart. I find it funny that noone has been able to dis-prove anything on that list.

The internet is an amazing thing. I just spent about 2 minutes doing a search on "George Bush Resume Rebuttal", and got this: GW Resume Rebuttal, by Curt King

Mr. King has done much research on rebuking the "George Bush Resume". Before you think that the "resume" is gospel, read Mr. King's counter-point.

Andy B.

[David Kelly]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

The internet is an amazing thing. I just spent about 2 minutes doing a search on "George Bush Resume Rebuttal", and got this: GW Resume Rebuttal, by Curt King

Mr. King has done much research on rebuking the "George Bush Resume". Before you think that the "resume" is gospel, read Mr. King's counter-point.

Andy B.

Nice work Andy. Once again, this comes to prove that some people only want to hurt the President and his reputation for purely political reasons. And as a result, hurts the rest of America.

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Nice work Andy. Once again, this comes to prove that some people only want to hurt the President and his reputation for purely political reasons. And as a result, hurts the rest of America.

Unfortunately, that's just politics for you. Like it or not, attacking your opposition is a common tactic, no matter which party you support. It might seem like Bush is getting more than his fair share of attacks, but, that's what happens in an election year. The party not in power will always try to do whatever they can to get in power, regardless of who the incumbent may be. Even Bush himself is not immune; his own campaign has made numerous attacks against John Kerry... so it's not like it's totally one-sided.

One must also be careful not to confuse attacking a political candidate with attacking America. Yes, George W. Bush is our president. But is running a campaign ad, or posting an editorial that hurts him, somehow, hurting America? No, it is simply a political tactic. Not one I particularly admire, and one I think we would be better off avoiding, but that is the dynamic of American politics today. People make attacks against candidates. Unless you know of a good way to stop this, it's something you just have to accept.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Nice work Andy. Once again, this comes to prove that some people only want to hurt the President and his reputation for purely political reasons. And as a result, hurts the rest of America.

The same could be said about many attacks on Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Clinton, or other prominent democrats. Republicans like Bush don’t receive more than they dish out. It’s about even between the political parties.

I agree with what Jeff said about an attack on a political standpoint not necessarily being something that hurts America. To think that politics or life in general is a happy place where opponents get along and can see reason is wishful thinking most of the time.

I’m an outspoken democrat, and I don’t appreciate this chain-email being brought up in a pseudo-political debate. It’s something that’s funny to chuckle at while realizing that the author has no sources to back up the accusations, but it’s not something you would use when trying to make any kind of valid argument. An intelligent person could argue in favor of a few of those points, despite the information in the rebuttal linked by Andy. I would like to call on the two members in this thread (one liberal and one conservative) who brought up this “resume” and have been attempting to debate its factuality to start a more thoughtful and factually verifiable debate in this thread, or take it to PM/IM’s. I’m more than willing to talk about my opinions with anyone who would like to IM me (my screen name while I’m in Washington D.C. is “bi24ll Laptop” without the quotation marks), but I think I’ll be staying out of this thread for the foreseeable future.

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Nice work Andy. Once again, this comes to prove that some people only want to hurt the President and his reputation for purely political reasons. And as a result, hurts the rest of America.

Wouldn't it also hurt America we if we don't criticize the problems? So, it's fine if we pull appart everyone BUT Republicans?

[akaria]

Personaly, if i could vote, i would vote for Kerry.
Bush has sone too much to the environment, and the health of the american public, to just let it slip by.

* he took away all limits on CO2 emissions

* he is allowing 7 times as much mercury in to the environment
-----mercury is a known nerve toxin and cause of birthdefects
-----Bush classified mercury, a nerve toxin, in to the same 'benign' catagory as greenhouse gasses knowing this

* he is releasing land for sale that was previously banned on the account that it was too toxic

* his chief of staff has continually been in contact with ultra conservative lobbying groups (highly funded by oil companies) to help downplay the findings of the EPA on the oil companies' impact on the environment

* he modifies the EPA reports to the point that the EPA will not release them because they are so untrue

* he helps to let the oil companies mine national parks that would take hundreds of years to grow back and would only provide acouple hours worth of oil( but the oil company mining would none the less get several million out of the deal

I did all of this reasearch myself, it was not taken off of some website with a list of wrongs. Below are my resourses(mostly news papers and all credible as to truthfullness, i did a paper for my AP Environmental class so they had to be ) look at them for more info

Bibliography
Pollutants, Health Risks Rise in Iraq Region. 22, May
2004.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...ollute01.shtml
The Environmental Impacts of War. 20, May 2004.
http://www.islandpress.org/eco-compass/war/
This website had lots of factual information on the
impacts of war on the environment. It also had
in-depth information about the intricacies of war and
how each aspect involved the environment.
Earth Crash. 20, May 2004.
http://eces.org/archive/ec/population/military.shtml
Environmental Impacts of War. 20, May 2004,
http://www.ems.org/war/risks.html
Bush Plan to Drill Rocky Mountain Front Would Yield
Less Than One Week's Gas Supply. 26 May, 2004.
http://www.bushgreenwatch.org
Bush covers up climate research. September 21, 2003.
24,May 2004.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...046363,00.html
This article covered the EPA reports that Bush’s
administration modified and the emails that went back
and forth between the chief of staff at the White
House Council on Environmental Quality and a director
of the Competitive Enterprise Institute.
Cheney Seeking Supreme Court Review of Energy Panel
Case. September 17, 2003. 20, May 2004
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...p16¬Found=true

EPA lifts ban on selling PCB sites. 23, May 2004.
http://www.usatoday.com/newe/washing...09-01-epa-usat
_x.htm
EPA Backs Away From Issue of Auto Emissions. 20, May
2004.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...g28¬Found=true
This article details why the EPA is not putting any
restrictions on auto emissions.
Bush Broadens abortion gag rule. 20, May 2004.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...6651675.htm?1c

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by David Kelly

Nice work Andy. Once again, this comes to prove that some people only want to hurt the President and his reputation for purely political reasons. And as a result, hurts the rest of America.

This is politics. The Republicans did it to Clinton and many talking heads (Limbaugh, Hannity, etc.) made much money as Clinton-bashers.

OK... now for some preaching from Uncle Andy:

This is a good thread. Let's keep it that way. It is healthy to debate these issues, but we all need to keep the debate "above the belt". I probably should not have posted a thread to an outside source, but I only did that because I already stated my position waaay back in this thread.

Personally, I wish that we would not simply debate the Iraq issue here. I am more interested in "what makes people tick" and "why" they lean right or left. I lean right because of my upbringing, family history and background, and my life-long desire to be self-dependant and self-reliant. If I want to give to a charity (which I do), I want it to be a organization of my choice, not the government's. Do I believe in hand-outs? yes. But, I want to decide on where to hand out my money.

It is great to see people writing what they believe in, with conviction. I am all for that. For example, the previous post by Erica Young is a wonderful post about her convictions with protecting the environment. That is outstanding.

For the rest of you (and I) - just be careful to show some respect for each other. I am smart enough to know that I simply do not know all of the answers, and have no knowledge of "ultimate truth" - and neither do any of you. Figure out "what makes you tick" and defend your priciples... but also respect your fellow CD poster.

You are now free to go back to this political debate.



Andy B.

[MattK]

My Last Post (I think) on This Thread

This Is Why I Want Kerry over Bush

-9/11
In my opinion after the 9/11 attacks the whole world was in shock, and they all felt bad for us and most were willing to give us aid. The Bush administration was in a position to do so many things that would change the world for the better. We could have worked better to find the people who attacked us, we could have increased positive relations with other countries governments (who had shied away from us in the past) and we could have had the vast majority of the world’s population on our side.

The Bush admin. dropped the ball- they not only made the entire world hate the United States Government but they made their own people hate them.

-The Evil Doers
To this day we have not found and brought to justice the two people / groups that actualy attacked us. Those being Osama Bin Laden and The Anthrax Killer

-Gay Marriage
I personally am not gay, but I have strong opinions on gay marriage. I think that adding a amendment to the constitution to ban same sex marriages is completely wrong. Marriage is a bond between 2 people in love. You would think this administration would understand this- Dick Cheny's own daughter is a lesbian.

-Iraq
We had no business going into Iraq. They were not a clear and present danger to the United States- Bush has set a horrible precedent. Please lets finish the job in Afganistan before we start a war with a country that is not a real threat.

-Patriot Act
This thing would be great if it was used to catch "terrorists". The problem is its not being used to do that. Can someone say "1984"

-Unprofessionally Run White House
I have never seen a president ever smirk when he talks about killing other humans. (If you watched his State Of The Union Address he smirk and gave a small chuckle when he said like "we have caught these many terrorist and these many others have been taken care of". I am paraphrasing that.

Those are my thoughts and I hope I have made clear why I want Kerry.

[Adam Y.]

This is on topic, I showed why I was not voting for bush (the resume) and you were picking it apart. I find it funny that noone has been able to dis-prove anything on that list.

All right. George Washington was the first president to enter office with a criminal record. This is a major duh. Andrew Jackson pistol dueled with other people which is something most people usually frown upon. Not only that but he was the only president in the history of the United States to ignore the Supreme Court just to take land away from the Indians. Probably one the worst cases of taking away someones fredoms. Roosevelt and the Japense interment camps.

Patriot Act

I know this may sound really stupid but... Can anyone tell me any abuse because of the Patriot act? Everyone always complains about it yet no one has cited one occurance in which it's happened.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

I know this may sound really stupid but... Can anyone tell me any abuse because of the Patriot act? Everyone always complains about it yet no one has cited one occurance in which it's happened.

There are many examples of the powers granted by the Patriot act being used and infringing in ways that previously would have been considered illegal. Moores latest movie touches briefly on this, and has a few cases as examples. Some further research would be easy enough on your part, if this interests you.

What worrys me are not the cases of infringement that we know about. It's the ones we don't. That is after all what the Patriot act allows for, violation of the 4th amendment with out any notice or record (among other things). In the good old days, back when that fourth item down on the bill of rights still had some meaning, a law enforcement agency would have to get a court to agree that someone's home needed to be searched or their phones tapped. These days, my library record could be searched, my phones tapped, my email scanned, my house searched, and all with out me ever knowing. I could be held in detention with out being charged or having legal counsel. And why? Well, Alvarenga (my last name) kinda sounds arabic to some (why I will never know).

Seriously, that could be all the justification it would take. The Patriot act allows for gross violation of your civil rights with out anyone’s knowledge for little or no reason. Is it always abused? No, probably not. But it has, it is, and will be abused. Furthermore, I haven’t heard of one case were a terrorist was arrested because of information that could have only be gathered because of the Patriot act.

Even the name annoys me. 'Call it the Patriot act and no one will be able to vote against it. How can you vote against something so patriotic sounding? Besides, if he does, that will just sound great in next years campaign against him!'

And people call me cynical.

-Andy A.

[dez250]

ok after multiple people asked me what i had said and that they would like to read what i had to say, i am deciding to repost it here. please do not get made at me or freak at me (in the chit chat forum) for reposting this, multiple poeple asked for it and i am just reposting it.



Please everyone take a minuet to read this post and try to understand what i am hoping can occur.

I try to stay away from political topics and forums as much as i can. It hits home with many people who are involved with the discussions of the topics that are brought up, whether it be Bush with sending more "soldiers" into foreign countries for many reasons, or it be an issue of religion, personal views or ideas any of the candidates may have that sway you to vote or not vote for them. Thus this is why i am making this post here. After watching this thread be brought back to life over the past 4 days, i am going to ask for everyone to step back for a minuet. Take a step back, gather all your thoughts that you have about this and other issues with the all the recent political occurances, write up a post and then after you re-read it and make sure that is what you want up, then post it. It seems many of the past posts have been spur of the moment posts in response to what someone else said and then later on the poster wishes he hadnt posted it because it wasnt fully thought out. So please get all your thoughts organized and then post it here...

Thanks for taking your time to read this and hopefully you will understand what i am trying to convay.

[Yan Wang]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

I know this may sound really stupid but... Can anyone tell me any abuse because of the Patriot act? Everyone always complains about it yet no one has cited one occurance in which it's happened.

I went to the first Canadian Regional in 2002. The border guy told me to renew my green card as it was a couple weeks outta date. OK. So when I get back I go to Syracuse's INS office and I fill out the paperwork and whatnot. Last year, I lacked a green card and before going to Canada and the Naval Academy in Annapolis for those regionals, I had to go back to Syracuse, fill out more paperwork, and then get a stamp in my passport saying my real green card was being renewed. Then this year, I, of course, had to get that stamp AGAIN before going to the Canadian Regional. And now, roughly 40 days before leaving for a trip to China, I must go again to Syracuse tomorrow to get that freakin' stamp. IT'S BEEN TWO AND A HALF YEARS. In the words of one wiser than me, THROW ME A FRICKIN BONE! Maybe it's not the Patriot Act, but you should understand what I mean - everything has gotten so much more inefficient than it needs to in the name of security. And I don't feel any less or more secure right now than before 9/11. And if that's the case, why should I approve of government legislation that allows for the violation of people's rights (regardless of which ones I don't have or have)?

[Bill Gold]

Following Andy’s lead, here’s my background and here are my beliefs.

I grew up in a household where my parents co-owned (and still do) a law firm that specializes in consumer bankruptcy law. They represent debtors who have fallen behind on car payments, house/apartment payments, have overdue taxes, and many other forms of debt. Every since I began to reason my parents have told me about some of the clients they represent (not the names, just the unfortunate circumstances they have to deal with). Thanks to these stories I’ve felt extremely empathetic and sympathetic towards people who aren’t as fortunate as I have been. It’s always gut wrenching to hear about their latest client who has the screws tightened on them by one creditor or another, especially when it’s a case of predatory lending on the creditor’s part. I am a firm believer in both second chances, and of doing whatever I can to make homeless peoples’ day a little better. Those who know me know that I buy meals for homeless people I see, or even give them $10-20 if I don’t have the time to buy them food. I don’t care if they buy alcohol or drugs with the cash. Whatever gets them through another day, and makes them temporarily feel better than they normally do.

I have no religious affiliation, and believe that I have no right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn’t do with their own body. That’s some of my reasoning for being pro-choice.

Like Andy I strive to be self-reliant. I have major issues with asking other people to do me favors, as a few on these boards can attest to. I don’t use or own credit cards. I’ve heard too many horror stories from my parents about them, but in addition to those I just don’t believe in credit. It makes my life a little tougher, but I’m glad I don’t pay APR.

I’ve got to get to bed soon, but I’ll post this now so that Andy doesn’t think I’m standing him up . I’ll post again or edit this one with more information later.