Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

[Lil' Lavery]

Ahh, the infamous team....er...C DQing. Receiving a yellow in the qualifyers, and a red in the elims. Yellow cards SHOULD carry over in this case to the elims. Because of in more minor or unsure of intention offenses, such as the arm situation with team C, it grants them, "a free hit" during the elims otherwise. In this specific case, there were other ways for Team C to prevent the opposing robot from haning, other than the manner they did, which would not grant a DQing, or even a yellow card.
My only problem with the yellow card, is that it forces the ref into the red card call the second time, even if the action wouldnt normally be a DQ. If it occurs a second time, and the second time it could very well be an accident, or it is far less severe of an infringment, if you dont call it it looks like favoritism or not being strong enough to DQ. Either way it can upset teams, and decrease the level of fair play. But if you do call it, your making an alliance that doesnt necisarrily deserve to lose, lose. Id go with a similar system, of warning them in private. That way, if a lesser case occurs, the only team that knows about it, is the infracting team.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Id go with a similar system, of warning them in private. That way, if a lesser case occurs, the only team that knows about it, is the infracting team.

It's an interesting point, but I think making other teams and the audience aware of the infraction is the most important piece of the system. By doing this, you make all the other teams aware of how the refs are viewing certain behavior and therefore you reduce the possibility of other teams making the same mistake (and that really is the point, right? We'd rather other teams learn from one team's mistake than have to punish multiple teams for the same thing). Also I feel it makes each team a little more accountable for their actions. I would expect that most teams would be a little embarassed about being called out in front of the audience for a rules violation, and that alone might be enough of a motivator for everyone to think about their actions before they become a problem instead of after.

I thought the system at IRI was done well. The refs did a great job of applying the rules fairly to all teams.

[Ben Lauer]

I agree with you Mr. Flowerday.

I remember watching many rounds, and a certian person next to me was actaully yelling at andy to give them a yellow card. If he didn't do it, this person probably would have beat him up. (kidding of course)

By telling the audience it show other teams that they cannot get away with the behavior, and that they must follow the rules if the wish to go unpenalized.

[Mike Schroeder]

well this can all go with the discussion, with how much like soccer do you want FIRST to become, it may get to the point where parents will start brawls in the bleachers

There are 2 reasons why there are rules... atleast 2 that i can think of... rules make the game more entertaining, and they are in place, for you (or the robots) saftey and protections, as a soccer ref, i cant even count how many times kids would walk onto my field without shinguards and cleats... i always threw them off, some did some didnt, they are required for a reason, reasons i have learned.

The Yellow and Red card is great it shows proof that the refs just do more than belly checks and count balls.


This is a game folks, and rules are rules, even if you kinda sorta broke one rule in the end its still broken

-Big Mike
Off to Fix my Rules... They are All Broken

I think the card system is great....too many times I have seen over the years teams disqualified for something that they were warned about several times and brushed off (then complained afterwards) and sometimes I have seen teams disqualified w/o any kind of warning because of what the other teams have done similar. Now with the new card system, teams will physically see the warning and know that the referees are serious truely serious. They will have a good enough warning and have no reason to complain about a DQ coming out of nowhere. Excellent idea and Id like to see it used in the upcoming FIRST season.

[JoeXIII'007]

I was not able to attend IRI, but I can tell that this is a badly needed system for all of FIRST competition. Excellent idea.

[ngreen]

I finally gathered a my thoughts about the card system at IRI. At the prompting of Aidan I submitted new rule <g35> . This is the card system. I have hit the wall several times on some of the issue you bring up. Do it penalize to much for minor infractions especially in the elims? Should there be different penalties for different things? If you notice, my first and second drafts even have a two match time limit. After watching it play out a IRI I think how it was handled was the fairest and best way to make the system work. I'll list some answers to my questions and then why I think IRI implementation worked the best.

About the penalizing for minor infractions, it could happen. Should it happen, maybe yes maybe no. At some point we as teams have to give some discretion to the referees and accept what they hand down. We can gain a feel for the calls refs throughout the day by the yellow cards they hand out. It is kind of like playing basketball. Some days the refs will "let them play" while other time they want to "be in control of the game". Refs use a lot of discretion in making calls and are expected to make fair and balanced calls. If they didn't we wouldn't love Andy so much.

In the thoughts of different cards for tipping or ramming or other illegal actions I think we shouldn't need to tell teams what they can't do. You should know and gain a feel of how tight they are calling it throughout the day. They keep slimming the rule book for a reason. For you will read it. That whole no entangling, tipping, ramming rule should be followed. I know it can be unintentional because of the distance, line of sight, and controls of the robot. But if you've been warned and you know I might entangle with, tip, or ram that robot that could cause possible harm to it and be DQed, you should stay a little farther away or be more cautious in your controls, aka not coming full speed towards them with your arm out towards them. So no seperate penalties, it's all against the rules. Plus it helps simplify the rulebooks that some people must use to level their workbench.

After watching IRI, I think that the yellow card should carry through both to the matches and elims. Unless the elims next year a greatly different that is how it should be. This makes it fair plus adds that new dimension to the game.

I thought it was implemented great at IRI. The refs and audience knew what was going on and had a great time. Hope to see it used in some form in the coming years. And since we are on the sports penalty topic, this year red cards(soccer) next year instant replay (football). j/k..I don't think we would want that. We would go from 8 matches a regional to 5 matches just for replay.

edit: Dez, I just don't see cards following to next competitions. Clean slate. Can you imagine getting a yellow card in a match in Sacramento but being DQed in ATL for the penalty carrying over. Each competition is seperate.

[Jim Zondag]

I thought the Yellow card/Red card system was great. FIRST has needed something like this for years. I think it was properly enforced at the IRI. The only change that I would make is that if FIRSt continues to award point penalties for other game violations (ie foot faults, robots in ball chute, etc) that there should also be a point penalty associate with a yellow card. After all, breaking the ball chute plane can cause you to lose if you get a penatly, but you more or less get one free game misconduct with a yellow card. A yellow card should have a negative point value so that it has risk of reversing the game outcome if it is awarded.

[R2K2D2]

I think that the card system is good and works well, however, once the criteria is created for what determines a yellow and red card, that needs to be fairly applied to all teams. *I am in no way attempting to discuss the specific call at IRI but solely for example sake, if one team "spears" a robot, every single team with an arm from there on out who "spears" a robot should be given a card, no questions asked. Like I think often times rules and DQ statements are given, but they are not followed up on all the time and where one robot gets called for entanglement (zone zeal) one round, the next round a team entangles and is not called on it or DQ'd. Whatever system is used, it has to be used all the time and there should be no slip-ups. I understand that calls are being made by judges and ref's who are only human, but there have bene evident times at competitions where some rule out on the field has been broken and warrants a DQ and then is not called, even tho it was called earlier in the competition.

just my 2 cents...

[suneel112]

In my opinion, if there is any doubt into whether there was any ill intention in "pushy" situations, the referees should penalize them. The refs' jobs/volunteer duties are to keep the FIRST competition friendly and graciously professional. I agree with the previous thread that ramming is illegal. FIRST components are not designed to withstand kinetic energies put on them.
If a robot is moving along and another robot puts its arm in the way and it gets knocked over, that is unintentional (no or low penalties).
If a robot backs up 10 feet and then cries "Charge!!", that is "ramming" and should have a high penalty, depending on the damage that it does. (ie tip over = yellow card. disable (electronic damage) = instant dq). If a robot is moving along and it gets some electrical damage, that is their fault, but if it gets charged, that isn't fair.
In addition, it should be illegal for a robot to lead with a "spear". while I don't doubt that team A had no intention of shutting off (or causing severe electrical damge to) team B, it definitely could have happened. If the claw had opened, and it had landed in the electronics, even if they tried to let go, it would have undoubtedly stripped team B's electronics. I would have felt terrible for team B if their robot got disabled that way and they had to miss out on being IRI champions.

But the Refs at IRI were great in that respect. They called penalties if they had the slightest doubt, which is what should be done. Hats off to them.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

My only problem with the yellow card, is that it forces the ref into the red card call the second time, even if the action wouldnt normally be a DQ. If it occurs a second time, and the second time it could very well be an accident, or it is far less severe of an infringment, if you dont call it it looks like favoritism or not being strong enough to DQ.

Sean has a good point here. The solution to this is the fact that a "yellow card" is given for only very serious offenses that are on the edge of being DQ situations. It should be meant to be a smidge bit away from being a DQ. The refs are ALMOST giving a DQ to a team, but they are not 100% sure about it, so they give a yellow card. That is the reason I said this above:

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

...
Yellow Card
- a yellow card is a serious, public warning that this team ALMOST received a disqualification (DQ)
...

-------

Originally Posted by suneel112

But the Refs at IRI were great in that respect. They called penalties if they had the slightest doubt, which is what should be done. Hats off to them.

We appreciate the kind words, but we really only call the penalties if we are sure about the call. There were many times where the refs were not sure (they had a doubt) about something, and therefore we did not call it. This happened with tipping, assisting a goal, and ball corral encroachment.

An example:
"one of those balls might have gone in the goal after touching their robot."
"are you sure?"
"no, it was close, I am not sure"
"then we're not going to call it"

---

As for the yellow card, I like the fact that it puts the onus back on the team. There is no penalty for having a yellow card, but the team knows that if they do something similar in a forthcoming match, they will get DQ'ed.

A detail that needs to be ironed out is the quantity of yellow cards. Karthik brings up a good point above, with the idea of getting cleared yellow card status for the elimination rounds. I would vote against the idea, for 2 reasons:

1. getting cleared status for the finals lessens the severity of a yellow card
2. while there is no penalty for a yellow card in a qualification match, it WILL make an impact on the decisions of a picking team: "should we pick team A or B? they both are good... but team B got a yellow card... hmmmm"

Andy B.

[abeD]

while there is no penalty for a yellow card in a qualification match, it WILL make an impact on the decisions of a picking team: "should we pick team A or B? they both are good... but team B got a yellow card... hmmmm"

Wow good point...this would even further deter teams from trying to live to close to the edge in qualification matches becuase getting a yellow card then would definately lessen the chances of being picked. Being one penalty away from a DQ could end up costing your team a trip to elim's. Knowing this throughout all of the Q. Matches would definately have an impact on the way the drivers compete.

[dez250]

Andy, one thing i saw as working with the displays in the Aux. gym is that there was no field display in there. There was the "pit display" of rankings being projected, but the drive teams that were located in there, if were not present on the field during the explaination of a yellow or red card call is they didnt know it occured, or why it occured. Yes they have the team out on the field in the stands but i know of many teams that dont have communication between the team in stands and drive team much during a competition. So i think if this system is going to be put into work, when a red card or yellow card is given, everyone should be made aware of the reasoning behind it and it should be saved for referance so if a team asks they can be told later on why a car was given.

Also another question would be could these cards follow a team to their next competition. I know that sounds doubtful, but think about it a little. Team X at competition 1 intentionally hooks a robot and get a yellow card for it. They dont do it again at competition 1 but when Team X is at competition 2, they do the same thing over again intentionally and once again get a yellow card. Now if this second occurance would deserve a red card, but due them trying to fool the crew because they are at a new event, should they get a dq for intentionally hooking a bot a second time or will cards thrown at an event stay at that event only?

Any way i think this idea was implemented great at IRI and could be improved into a well thought out and desinged system in which could be used at any/all FIRST competition and would improve the competitions.

Nice job Mr. Baker and other IRI refs on your fair and professional job done at the 2004 IRI.

~Mike

[Steve W]

I also was not at IRI. Work is such a pain at times. I would like to start by saying that it is good that people are trying to make things better. I am also one person with one persons outlook on things. That being said .....

I still don't like this card thing. The refs this year had a hard enough time knowing what the rules were. Every event that I attended (6 in all) had different rulings and many rule changes. As a hockey ref, baseball ump and player of many sports, one thing is for sure. The rules must be set in concrete before the season starts and they must not change. This is not an option! For some reason FIRST believes that it is their mandate to screw up the teams and their machines by changing the rules. There is no reason for a yellow card. You state that a team does something questionable or not quite bad enough to DQ then they get a yellow card. If they do it again then they will get DQ'd. If there was no foul the first time then there is no foul the second time. They still have not broken the rules. They have, in your ( or the refs ) mind come close to the edge but not quite crossed. That's what this game as well as the world is about. Do your best WITHIN the rules and compete hard to be your best. Will you or others sometime go over the line, yes of course and then you get penalized. But to give warnings that 'you are too close for us and if you make me uncomfortable agin then I will penalize you', are just not in true sportsmanship or in the spirit of competition. Measures are in place to penalize teams that deserve it. Let's just use them and get the rules down before we start the season. Robots are to be make sturdy and designed to the game. Teams that have not protected their electronics should be DQ'd for poor design with safety being sooooo important.

Please excuse my rantings but certain things need to be fixed before we start adding more, less defined, decisions for the refs. I believe that most refs do a great job and do not favor any teams. I believe that they try to call plays according to the interpratation (spelling) they they are given at the time. I believe that they can have one of the most stressfull jobs at the event and they are not given enough credit for wat they do. I would like to thank all of the refs for their willingness to put themselves into this situation

As for the flags, forget it.

[Jeff Waegelin]

My only problem with the yellow card/red card system is that it forces the referees to call a DQ in situations where they might not normally make that call. Sometimes, you might be willing to give a team the benefit of the doubt in a questionable DQ situation, but if that team has already received a yellow card, the standard required for a DQ becomes a lot lower. Basically, I am concerned that actions that normally would not merit a DQ would receive one, simply because the team in question already got a yellow card. While not completely the same situation, I did worry that this is what we did to "Team C" at IRI. Do we want to be lowering the burden of proof for second offenses? Perhaps it is the way we want to go, to make teams consider their actions more carefully, but we must make sure that is the intended result.