Jewish students attacked at Auschwitz

[DCA Fan]

MODS: Delete this if you find it to be inappropriate, but I was interested in seeing what some viewpoints of this were:

"While on a tour of the museum at the Auschwitz death camp in Poland on Sunday, a group of around 50 Jewish university students from Israel, the U.S. and Poland were verbally attacked by a three-member gang of French male tourists. " Read More

That is perhaps one of the most disgusting, despicable things to do to ANY persecuted race. I'm just thinking as to how any sensible person could've done this.

[Max Lobovsky]

That is pretty terrible, but strangely enough, some other things caught my eye in your post.

Why should this thread be deleted and not any other aribtrary chit-chat thread? Can we not discuss anything unpleasant here?

And, as a Jew, I think it is probably a bad idea to refer to Jews as a "persecuted race". Most (all?) races have been persecuted at one time or another, and even if Jews have had it particularly worse (I'd say so), there is no need to make it sound like this statement is specific to a certain set of people. It applies to any group that has had some tragedy befall it.

Anyway, the recent surge in anti-semitism in France is really apalling. Europe tends to take a position of morale higher ground in many arguments with the US (Kyoto Protocol, Iraq, Israel, etc) and this really makes them look like a bunch of hypocrites...

[MikeDubreuil]

The article says that one of the Jewish students could understand and speak French. The student said that the man said things that were "brutish and vulgar," but that also "made absolutely no sense."

Why would someone talk in their native language and make absolutely no sense? Either these French men were mentally unstable or perhaps they had a little too much alcohol to drink. Either one, they probably didn't undertand the impact they were going to make when they did it and probably just did it because they thought it was amusing at the time.

[jonathan lall]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

Anyway, the recent surge in anti-semitism in France is really apalling. Europe tends to take a position of morale higher ground in many arguments with the US (Kyoto Protocol, Iraq, Israel, etc) and this really makes them look like a bunch of hypocrites...

I don't want to turn this into an essay, but let's not get ahead of ourselves; European policy tends to hold a religiously detached stance in many areas. This "hypocritical" behaviour is the result of a few people and for the most part, not of the governments. We should also note that moral high ground is a relative thing. Take Bush's stance on stem cell research (a very conservative allowance) for example. While most nonreligious people would agree that research is a neccessary step, it's certainly not a moral stance. Of course, the Kyoto Protocol is only partially helpful, and isn't an environmental policy that directly helps urbanites, and also France's position on Iraq probably has a lot to do with TotalFinalElf.

In other words, the Europe generalizations you're making are pretty unwarranted, I would say.

[RudimentaryPeni]

i hope no one takes this as all french people think this way. i am a jew, and im not nessesaraly mad at those people, just i feel they need to be educated.(Maybe thats why they were there) they obviously didnt get much from it. But we shouldn't look at france now in disgust, rather look at those two guys as ignorant. and other countries shouldnt look at america as a land of hate just because of some people that makes fun of other countries, not every one is like that here.

So now that i have made no sense, thats what i think.

[Dorienne]

Originally Posted by RudimentaryPeni

i hope no one takes this as all french people think this way. i am a jew, and im not nessesaraly mad at those people, just i feel they need to be educated.(Maybe thats why they were there) they obviously didnt get much from it. But we shouldn't look at france now in disgust, rather look at those two guys as ignorant. and other countries shouldnt look at america as a land of hate just because of some people that makes fun of other countries, not every one is like that here.

So now that i have made no sense, thats what i think.

No, I honestly think you make perfect sense. Just because two people from one country have a certain belief does not mean the whole country acts in that manner and thinks like that. I completely agree with you.
As for my opinion on this article, I think it's disgusting how these men behaved. I've studied the Holocaust for a couple of years now, and I'm partly Jewish (only on my father's side..long story), so I find this completely offensive and inappropriate. Either those men came to find Jews to verbally, possibly physically, attack, or they decided to have some fun with random people that came by, as Mike said.
All in all, I am purely disgusted.
--Dori

[Greg Needel]

i normally don't talk in the chit chat but this tread caught my attention as it hits me close to home. in 2000 i was fortunate to go on a trip called the march of the living which is a 2 week trip through Poland visiting concentration camps. i am Jewish and this experience was like none other in my whole life. now to the point. when we were at Majdanek my group experienced a similar act of hatred, we had a group of neo-nazi skin heads march on our group harassing us calling us pigs and dirty jews , screaming white power. it was one of the most intense moments in my entire life. I say moments because we has armed security with us and it was all over in less then a min. but the thing that came out of the experience to me was probably more exposure to the fact that there is still a large portion of the world who still feels that Hitler was right and still strives to compete his work. The whole purpose of this trip was education so that we would be able to share what we saw and become new survivors, making sure that people know the truth about what happened. I guess what i am trying to say is that even as terrible as this situation sounds it will probably one of the most important moments of their trip in the long run.

[Josh Hambright]

I dont even know where to start for my reply to this thread. Honestly all i can say is that reading this news story makes me sad and at the same time makes me all the more convicted to several causes that I've been active in.
Racism is something that lives in all of us weither or not we want to admit it or not. Its something that everyone must work within themselves to end. Its a horrible plauge that man kind has been dealing with ever since the beginning of time. Education is the only cure for it, ignorance is the main cause of it. Not that i am saying that all racists are ignorant, infact the truth is that most are far from it.
I disagree with what Greg said however about a large portion of the world still thinking that Hitler was right. I feel that only a small portion of the world agrees with Hitler, the majority of the people in the world see he was a fanatical madman, who really only cared about himself.
I could go on and on about this subject...but instead i'll post some links for you guys.
http://www.positiveyouthfoundation.org - Positive Youth Foundation, Great Group.
http://aralaf.mahost.org/ - The Anti-Racist Action Chapter in my Town
http://www.adl.org/ - Anti Defimation League
http://www.splcenter.org/ - Souther Poverty Law Center
http://www.aranet.org/ - Anti-Racist Action Website
Like i said education is the only way to battle back against racism, so check some of those links out and educate yourself

"Be Young, Have Fun, Fight Racism" - One of the ARA slogans.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

I don't want to turn this into an essay, but let's not get ahead of ourselves; European policy tends to hold a religiously detached stance in many areas. This "hypocritical" behaviour is the result of a few people and for the most part, not of the governments. We should also note that moral high ground is a relative thing. Take Bush's stance on stem cell research (a very conservative allowance) for example. While most nonreligious people would agree that research is a neccessary step, it's certainly not a moral stance. Of course, the Kyoto Protocol is only partially helpful, and isn't an environmental policy that directly helps urbanites, and also France's position on Iraq probably has a lot to do with TotalFinalElf.

In other words, the Europe generalizations you're making are pretty unwarranted, I would say.

Yeah, I kind of realized that I was half trolling in that last comment in my post. Not to say I don't believe what I said, but it's kind of stupid of me to make such a far-reaching statement and only touch on so little evidence.

I don't really understand the distinction between a country's actions and an individual's actions that people often bring up. I think we can relatively safely say that the French government's actions are the result of the people's wishes. So, when does something start to reflect on a country? When its voted into law? When a majority of the population believes it? Regardless, here is some data on anti-semitism in France: http://haganah.us/hmedia/euasr-12.html (it's on a Jewish website, but most of the data is gathered from neutral sources. Why woud Jews want to pick out some country, anyway?)

[jonathan lall]

Fair enough.

[Adam Y.]

I don't want to turn this into an essay, but let's not get ahead of ourselves; European policy tends to hold a religiously detached stance in many areas. This "hypocritical" behaviour is the result of a few people and for the most part, not of the governments.

Wasn't it France that asked Muslim girls to remove their headscraves during school? I have to say that this is pretty extreme and would never happen in the United States.

[jonathan lall]

It is, but note it's just a different kind of secularism. Whereas in North America we tend to try to be inclusive of religious ritual, garb, etc., in France and Germany, the idea is to make everyone equal and show no sign of religion. A large cross medallion is also prohibited, supposedly.

[Josh Hambright]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Wasn't it France that asked Muslim girls to remove their headscraves during school? I have to say that this is pretty extreme and would never happen in the United States.

One would think so based off of our constitution. But...
A quick google search for "Tinker Vs. Des Moines School District" or "Freedom of Speech in school" will show you that its not true. I know that I was harassed by teachers/administrators for wearing things that although weren't neccasarily of religious nature but rather of a political nature in school.
Often times it is sighted that anything they dont like 'disturbs' the class and they ban it.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Wasn't it France that asked Muslim girls to remove their headscraves during school? I have to say that this is pretty extreme and would never happen in the United States.

Just as an experiment, someone might want to try taking a normal black T-shirt, and painting on it (in red) some sort of non-mainstream slogan...say (for argument's sake) "GO SATAN GO"*. Then walking into a typical American school, and counting with a stopwatch the number of seconds it takes for someone to accost you, and haul you to the office for summary punishment.

Other than the moral implications (which are obviously subjective, and religiously motivated), why is this different from wearing a "WWJD" shirt, or a turban, or a hijab?

*If easily offended, consider that Satan is a member of the Buffalo Sabres.

[DCA Fan]

To respond to a few things, first, I made a note if this should be deleted because I know it's a touchy subject and I really don't want anyone to be offended in any way. Second, I agree with RudimentaryPeni, don't think that all French people are this way, just in this case, that's where the anti-semetic comments came from. What's really alarming to me is to think that in such a modern world that we live in now, where cultures and races mix so constantly, that there would be such people willing to put down others and try to raise themselves above other races, indeed, even using one of the darker moments in history to do so.

I also do not want to single out Jews, throughout history, as Max L said, virtually every race has been persecuted, the Chinese in Nanking, Cambodians under Pol Pot, Armenians under Turkey, the list goes on.

Edit: I had included Japanese Internment Camps in my list of persecutions, but, as one CD member brought up to me, it pales in comparison to the horrendous acts of the others listed, so I've removed it.