Question of the Week!!! (8/16/04)

[kpugh]

Originally Posted by JVN

This segues into my answer nicely:
I'd love to spend some time on a really well established team, with some strong engineers and mentors.

I want to learn.

It'd be great to hop onto a team like the Technokats or Team Hammond and just... watch. I'd be content doing nothing but making parts.
Think how much you could learn watching Andy and Mark work on their newest tranny design...

I've got a lot of mentoring role models in my life, but it'd be great to spend some "up close" time with some of them.


Once I've learned "enough" then I'd consider striking off on my own and found my own team.

$.02

JV
(who would love to take a backseat)

Exactly!
I have never had the opportunity to work with a veteran team and really learn the ins and outs of setting up a team. I was on team 229 for 2 years. It was the teams 2nd and 3rd years of existence and still figuring out what does/does not work for the team.

From there I started team 891 here in Syracuse. It has been really difficult because nobody on the team really has any experience. Plus we have no mechanical engineers, only electrical
So not only are we trying to figure out how to organize the team, recruit, fundraise, etc. we also have no idea what works/doesn't work robot wise.

Fortunately the Liverpool team has been helpful to us, plus I have a friend from Aces High that is starting a team in Rochester so I plan on pumping her for ideas! And lurking around on CD really helps too

I would jump at the chance to observe one of these well established veteran teams to learn how to organize the team, what to do to train students in the fall, and all the little things that end up biting us at the end of the six weeks. Then I would go off and use that knowledge to start a new team.

Kristin

[Bcahn836]

When I joined my team they were in their first year, I joined at the end of thier first season so i basicly started on their second year, it was good to have a team that was somewhat established, although they weren't a " veteren " team it was alot of fun, because you were able to explore possibilites that a vetern team wouldn't do. I though it was great learning from our mistakes, i think that makes a good vetern team in the future.

[Lisa Perez]

I'd prefer being on a rookie team for plenty of reasons. But, seeing that most of them have been mentioned, I'll keep this concise.

Although rookie teams have hardly been around, it is likely that many very different ideas will come from them - even if the ideas aren't as developed because of less experience. Veteran teams will have creative ideas, too, but might be more likely to base a design on what worked well in the past for them.

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally Posted by JVN

This segues into my answer nicely:
I'd love to spend some time on a really well established team, with some strong engineers and mentors.

I want to learn.

It'd be great to hop onto a team like the Technokats or Team Hammond and just... watch. I'd be content doing nothing but making parts.
Think how much you could learn watching Andy and Mark work on their newest tranny design...

I've got a lot of mentoring role models in my life, but it'd be great to spend some "up close" time with some of them.


Once I've learned "enough" then I'd consider striking off on my own and found my own team.

$.02

JV
(who would love to take a backseat)

I would agree with John. I'd love to join an established veteran team, just to learn. I'm not all that comfortable taking a lead role, and I'd love to be able to work with some of the best minds and greatest people in FIRST. While I would probably enjoy starting my own team, the experience of being with a veteran team would be priceless.

[Jessica Boucher]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

Probably a rookie because an expierienced team would tell me to hush up and take a back seat.

Originally Posted by JVN

This segues into my answer nicely:
I'd love to spend some time on a really well established team, with some strong engineers and mentors.

I want to learn.

It'd be great to hop onto a team like the Technokats or Team Hammond and just... watch. I'd be content doing nothing but making parts.
Think how much you could learn watching Andy and Mark work on their newest tranny design...

The reason why I stated that I feel the definition should be split is because of these two comments. I feel that although every team evaluates what it does and decides whether certain areas need fixing, there are some teams that don't want to change the way things are going because they're working.

The question stated simply "be on a team". Certain teams will fit better for different people. If you're looking to take an active role in helping a team, then you can still choose a veteran team - you just have to find one that's ready to make big changes. And there are many out there!
Since the only quantifable way to explain this is through awards (although by no means the only way to measure FIRST success), pulling from Dr Joe's wonderous spreadsheet of teams and Rich Wong's statistics, 375 separate teams walked away with 647 possible awards this year, out of 929 registered teams...an average number of awards for each of the teams who recieved any award of 2.42. Those numbers alone show that there's much room for diversification in award recieving teams - hence there are teams out there who may be looking to make major changes. For some people it's more satisfying that way when success finally comes - because the team has waited so long for it.

Other teams are less likely to change their ways (the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" theory) - they've found what works for them. There are other people out there who are best fit for these teams, such as, but not limited to, people who just want to watch. That doesn't mean that the newcomer can't suggest something, but someone who is looking to take an active role right away on an older team may not be as satisfied here.

There are teams out there that are seriously looking for the help, and there are teams that are not as seriously looking. But because of the different needs of individuals as well as teams, veterans shouldn't be all clumped together just because they all have at least one year underneath their belts.

[Dorienne]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Question of the Week (8/16/04):
Other than the team that you are currently on, Would you rather be on a veteran team with many years of experience, or a rookie team starting from scratch?

I really wouldn't know. It would be easy in the long run to be on a veteran team, like mine, but it'd be a good experience to see what it'd be like being on a rookie team. I have heard about the hardships and challenges, but all the same it'd still be amazing to know what it's like. My team still has hardships, like every team, and it does usually seem like we're still a rookie team. But the main thing is you learn from those hard times, and evolve from them.
All the same, I would be on either one. Possibly both . Great question!
--Dori

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Jay H 237

Being a veteran means the "framework" for a team should already be in place so you can concentrate more on designing and constructing a robot instead of a team. .

I would agree that a veteran team may have many things in place already, but if not constantly re-inventing itself, even the veteran team will soon fall apart.

I would argue that one advantage that the veteran team has in place is that it has enough prior knowledge that it can concentrate more on being a team rather than solely focus on constructing the robot, and more students can then become involved in the FIRST program.

[Andy Baker]

I would like to try a year on a rookie team. I really look up to guys like Joe Balint, Rob Mainieri and Rich Wong who are "Pied Pipers" of FIRSTism, starting many teams.

In a few years, I might get a chance to do this. The school district we live in, outside of Kokomo, does not have a FIRST team. The Superintendent and the HS Principal have given me every excuse in the book to not have a FIRST team (not enough money, no lead teacher, no facility, etc.), and they don't seem to be interested at all in starting one soon.

When my eldest daughter becomes a freshman 7 years from now, she will have the choice to be a TechnoKat or to be on a team at her school. If they don't have a team by then, and she wants to be on a team with her friends at her school, then I will help start one.

Andy B.

[Elizabeth Bagley]

hmmm, good question. Almost immediatley you would want to say veteran so you seem to have a good chance on winning. Yes, veteran is good especially for experience, but I believe it would also be fun to be on a rookie team! Do ya'll remember your schools first year??? I bet it was the bestest funest ever! hehe While veterans have fun experimenting with what they've learned and crashing old robots, rookies get to joke around a whole bunch and pretend to not know what they're doing (even though they do! hehe)

I think both is great! It's fun either way and each is fun in their own way! Like I said, great question! ^.^

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Aignam

A rookie team. There's just something about pioneering your way, laying down the threads with which the team will flourish, rather than having a current system spoon fed to you.

I'd like to be on a team with little money, little experience, few resources, but some determined, hard-working students and a devoted teacher. Any out there in Jersey?

That's pretty much my team. Except the little money thing may change by the time 2005 season starts. We are working on it. Feel free to come on over.

Personally, I loved my rookie year in FIRST, and I think its mainly because we were rookies and we really had to figure out things as we went along. I understand what JVN was saying, but I think I learn better by just jumping in.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Aignam

I'd like to be on a team with little money, little experience, few resources, but some determined, hard-working students and a devoted teacher. Any out there in Jersey?

Sounds just like us (except we're in MI, not NJ). Most of the team is/was class of '04, the teacher that alowed us to use his shop is retiring, and we still need to make up a defecit from our rookie year.

[Rich Kressly]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

I would like to try a year on a rookie team.
Andy B.

I just put bunk beds in my son's room. Wanna come to PA for the 06 season?

[ebmonon36]

I enjoyed my year on a rookie team. No one really knew what to expect and everything was kind of a suprise. We didn't have big expectations, but when we did well, we were all very happy. During the build season, there was a little bit of unorganization and chaos. There is something about that that I enjoyed. It wasn't a very rigid schedule and allowed for a lot of flexability. The program was new to everyone so no one was better than anyone else because everyone had the same expirience with the program. Now whether that was just the way my team worked or the way all rookie teams are, I'm not sure.
Eric

[Barry Bonzack]

This is something that I have been thinking about recently as I continue my efforts to start a team at my school.

Rookie team:
Advantages:
Get to be a founder of the team, knowing what you do will stay with your school and your team for many years to come, possibly affecting many students' futures that follow.
Decide on key factors that mold the team such as name, colors, mascots, etc.
Level playing field with all students no matter what grade they are in... freshman, seniors, makes no difference.
Fewer students that knows the team even exists, meaning more hand on time for you.
Chance at going to the Championship with the Rookie All-Star award
Get to spread the values of FIRST and Gracious Professionalism to more high school students.
Disadvantages:

The unknown... Not knowing what works and what doesn't. One mistake like having a direct drive with the drill motors, and your robot is sitting in the corner all regional.
Not knowing how judging process works, and possibly come up unprepared.
Not having connections to other teams to help you out until later in the year.
Not knowing Chief Delphi exists until someone tells you about it at the regional
Community and even the school unaware of your existence, hard for recruiting and sponsorship
Sometimes drawn out conversations trying to choose simple things like team colors and name. Things like not knowing what your team number is, and waiting for registration, and other things veteran teams have already done can result in less time for offseason learning. Keeping in mind, there also was no summer workshops for a team that doesn't exist.
Even the mentors and teachers are rookies and aren't always sure what works and what doesn't.

Vet team:
Advantages:
Most likely already known in your community, helps for more sponsors.
Already have an idea of who will be on your team next year
More extra parts, and pit materials, and supplies from years past
Old robots that can be used for demonstrations for sponsorship and recruiting more students.
More opportunities to learn battle tested methods
Learn for engineers that have been in it for many years that knows all about FIRST, and tricks of the trade
Multiple regionals.

disadvantages:
The people that stick it out for many years will rise to the top (good thing) but if someone like me were to join a team with 300 kids during his junior or senior year, there’s a chance of being lost in the mix instead of a leadership position like I have now. With 300 kids, and only 4 people allowed to be drivers/human player/coach, no chance of being on the floor driving what you've built.
The best of the best win the awards to make it to championship event (again, good thing), but if you aren't a powerhouse vet, there's a chance you won't get the chairman’s or win the regional.

Help me out with more vet disadvantages; I'm sure there are more than I know.


My final decision is the Good always outweighs the bad, and I can not wait to get my team started here, and am very much hoping everything falls into place correctly. The battle with starting a team is not knowing who will be on your team, not knowing who will be your teacher sponsor, and of course some money issues. When joining a team, it is easy to take for granted that these things are already set in place. Some things like knowing you'll get to go to multiple regionals, and one doesn't have to worry about if they will have a teacher in time for registration dues or not -everyone thank your teacher sponsors next time you see them, they are good people.
Many times I wonder what it would be like to be on a powerhouse team. Like JVN said, how awesome it would be to learn from engineers like Andy Baker. I would love to be on 233 and actually build the robot in NASA facilities, what would that be like? Who would you get to meet while doing that? Heck, it would be nice just to have another student on the team that gets as excited about robotics as I do. But these are all just growing pains, and I am in hopes of what I start becoming something great, maybe not a powerhouse, but a good team nonetheless

My long long $0.02, Thanks.
Barry B.

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Bonzack1390

This is something that I have been thinking about recently as I continue my efforts to start a team at my school.

Rookie team:
Advantages:
...

Disadvantages:

The unknown... Not knowing what works and what doesn't. One mistake like having a direct drive with the drill motors, and your robot is sitting in the corner all regional.
Not knowing how judging process works, and possibly come up unprepared.
Not having connections to other teams to help you out until later in the year.
Not knowing Chief Delphi exists until someone tells you about it at the regional
Community and even the school unaware of your existence, hard for recruiting and sponsorship
Sometimes drawn out conversations trying to choose simple things like team colors and name. Things like not knowing what your team number is, and waiting for registration, and other things veteran teams have already done can result in less time for offseason learning. Keeping in mind, there also was no summer workshops for a team that doesn't exist.
Even the mentors and teachers are rookies and aren't always sure what works and what doesn't.

.....

My long long $0.02, Thanks.
Barry B.

Many of these can be mitigated by having a good mentor team. Preferably one that has been around several years. 233 would be an excellent choice. They have been around, obviously understand marketing and branding, create innovative robots, and are close enough to be of help in a crunch. (I think, I'm not too sure of Florida geography). Maybe you'd even get a trip inside their shop!

While it is nearly impossible to adequately explain the FIRST experience to a rookie team, much can be done to prepare them in advance. It also helps if there is clear understanding of what is expected of both the mentor and mentee teams.

We have used the following outline successfully in the past:

Sept-Nov
A delegation from mentor team meets with rookies at least twice to help with name choices and organizing. We also make contact everytime there is a major announcement from FIRST to ensure they recieved it and understand it.
We also make sure they are aware of any local events like seminars or off-season competitions.

December
Make sure they have a build location and tools. Get ready for Kickoff

Jan-Feb
"play" the game with human robots. Ensure they understand the rules both for game and robot. Visit weekly to ensure they are staying close to schedule. Provide technical input when asked or it is obvious they are struggling.

March-April
Meet at least once between build and competition. Explain the ins and outs of competition and venue. Make sure they understand judging and alliance picking processes.

May
Year-end debrief. This helps them decide what to do differently and shows holes in the mentoring process.

Next year
Stay in touch. It takes 3-4 years for a team to be fully established. While we don't visit them any more, we still stay in touch with the first team we mentored 4 or 5 years ago. We maintain bonds of friendship with them and are as proud of their accomplishments as we are of our own.