John Kerry: Good, bad, or both?

[pi_guy578]

Thanks Dan for recognizing religion.

Allright, I am concerned about the infringement of church and state by bush. Bush is a very religous man and has shown religious motives.

I want to try and close my comments by saying a religious president is better than an athiest one. They usaully are more compassionate, thoughtful, overall are better people. (this applies to both kerry and bush, in fact all presidents, i don't know of any atheists ever being in office)

[Joshua May]

Originally Posted by pi_guy578

Thanks Dan for recognizing religion.

I want to try and close my comments by saying a religious president is better than an athiest one. They usaully are more compassionate, thoughtful, overall are better people. (this applies to both kerry and bush, in fact all presidents, i don't know of any atheists ever being in office)

Oh, now don't even go there. I myself am an athiest, and I find myself to be very compassionate, thoughtful, and I think I am a good person. Now just because I am a good person because of myself and not because a book tells me how I should behave does not make me any lesser than you or anyone else. One's religion does not make them better or worse than anyone else, which is something that I think carries with many athiests.

[Bill Gold]

This thread has been derailed, but I cannot, in good conscience, let this slide…

Originally Posted by pi_guy578

I want to try and close my comments by saying a religious president is better than an athiest one. They usaully are more compassionate, thoughtful, overall are better people. (this applies to both kerry and bush, in fact all presidents, i don't know of any atheists ever being in office)

That is one of the most offensive things I’ve ever read. How dare you claim that you’re a better, more compassionate and thoughtful person than I am because you’re religious and I’m not. You have no fact to back up your absurd statement. Are abortion clinic bombers more companionate than Atheists just because they have religious ideals, however fanatic they are? The idea that a religious background makes you superior to those who do not practice a religion is tantamount to the supremacy ideals of the Nazis and White Supremacists.

Like I said before, if you want to live your life by your religion that’s your right, but it is inappropriate to demean those who do not share your faith. We Atheists and Agnostics are not second class citizens and deserve the same respect you enjoy as a person of faith.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Bill Gold

This thread has been derailed, but I cannot, in good conscience, let this slide…

That is one of the most offensive things I’ve ever read. How dare you claim that you’re a better, more compassionate and thoughtful person than I am because you’re religious and I’m not. You have no fact to back up your absurd statement. Are abortion clinic bombers more companionate than Atheists just because they have religious ideals, however fanatic they are? The idea that a religious background makes you superior to those who do not practice a religion is tantamount to the supremacy ideals of the Nazis and White Supremacists.

Like I said before, if you want to live your life by your religion that’s your right, but it is inappropriate to demean those who do not share your faith. We Atheists and Agnostics are not second class citizens and deserve the same respect you enjoy as a person of faith.

pi guy did not actually say anything about you, Bill. He didn't even make a claim about all presidents. He simply said that he believed that in general religiousness implies compassion, thoughtfulness, etc. I doubt you are denying him the right to make generalizations based on experience.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

pi guy did not actually say anything about you, Bill. He didn't even make a claim about all presidents. He simply said that he believed that in general religiousness implies compassion, thoughtfulness, etc. I doubt you are denying him the right to make generalizations based on experience.

While he did not mention me by name, it was quite plainly stated in that post that he believed that being religious made you a better person than someone who wasn’t religious. I made it pretty clear that that is what I took offense at. I used us as examples to add a more human element to his statements. You’re clarifying his statement in a way that he may not actually believe while both straw-manning and choosing red herrings from mine. If his “generalization based on experience” is that religious people are better than nonreligious people, then I take issue with it, but wouldn’t censor his opinion. I’m not doing so. If you want to take a side, then feel free.

[Karthik]

Sigh.

I'm in shock at some of the stuff I'm reading here. I'm not sure what's bothering me more, the offensive nature of the comments being made towards homosexuals, or the fact that so many people seem perfectly okay with these attitudes.

Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and their voice. I will never deny anyone that right. I guess I just had higher expectations of people.

By the way, HIV did not originate from homosexuals, it originated from Chimpanzees. http://www.avert.org/origins.htm. (As with any link that leads away from CD, please be aware that some content on avert.org may be considered inappropriate by some.) That being said, this is still no reason to ban marriage between consenting adult chimpanzees.

*Shakes head and walks away*

[Matt Attallah]

This is going downhill really fast in a handbag.

We need to stop this with religion. The 3 things I NEVER speak about extensivly are Politics, Religion, and money. There is no right way, and no wrong way.

Eather please stop this or I will personally ask Brandon/moderator to close this thread. This has to stop right here with all the religion and stuff. Get this thread back on topic ASAP.

[Matt Attallah]

What is your opinion of John Kerry?

1) What do you like about him?
2) What don't you like about him?
3) What could he do to improve your opinion of him?
4) WHat do you think of his ability as a public speaker?
5) Do you agree with all, most, some, or none of his positions on key issues (i.e. the war in iraq, economics, etc)?
6) Any other comments

Have fun with this thread; in other words, be polite to those who have different opinions than you do.

There - that is the original topic. Please continue to speak about religion in your PMs.

[Cory]

Excuse me, but what is wrong with religion?

It clearly fits into question two. Plenty of people do not like Bush because he toes the line of church and state far too much (in their opinion)

As long as people can debate constructively and civily without personally attacking each other, there is absolutely no reason why religion cannot be discussed, along with a myriad of other topics.

Unfortunately there are some users of CD wo cannot do what I just described, and threads like these go bad.

$0.02

[Matt Attallah]

You can simply say that you don't like the way religion plays a role in his choices, or that he is not letting the bible (or whatever) play enough of a roll - but this has turned into a topic about nothing but religion and a nasty one at that. So - if you wanna talk about nothing but religion that's fine by me - but do it in PM or start another thread. We don't need blble quotes here. THat is taking it far off topic IMHO.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

On the lines of going back on track...

So people have said why John Kerry is a good public speaker/bad public speaker. His ideas are good, or his ideas are bad.

But nobody has actaully attempted to answer this question directly (not that I can tell at least):
Is John Kerry Good Bad or Both?

I myself would argue Both. Does John Kerry represent many of my views? yes. Is he the ideal presidential candidate for me? No, not necessarily. Does this make him bad, not really in a way, but as far as the election goes I argue both. If John Kerry weren't flawed in some way, there would be no question as to who would win this Election. Same goes for George Bush, as far as flaws go. But exactly where on your lists does he fall? Maybe even a number...on a scale of 1-10, I'm gonna give him 7.5 Fair enough.

[JVN]

After reading a few of the more "zealous" posts in this thread, I was reminded of this quote:

Originally Posted by A Wise FIRST-Dude

let's again revisit the definition of IGNORANCE:

1. lacking knowledge or experience
2. caused by or showing lack of knowledge
3. unaware.

Who falls under that heading in this thread? I count quite a few.

Wow.
Everytime I read these threads. (Read: ALL threads involving politics or religion) I lose respect for a few more users of these forums.

Thanks guys. In my opinion, you've set a new low.
Congratulations, you should all be very, VERY proud.

Seriously.
Pull your head out of your butt, and join the rest of the RATIONAL world.


First segway flame-wars, now this... It's a veritable golden age here on CD these days.

Carry on,

JVN

[Aaron Knight]

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov

On the lines of going back on track...

So people have said why John Kerry is a good public speaker/bad public speaker. His ideas are good, or his ideas are bad.

But nobody has actaully attempted to answer this question directly (not that I can tell at least):
Is John Kerry Good Bad or Both?

I myself would argue Both. Does John Kerry represent many of my views? yes. Is he the ideal presidential candidate for me? No, not necessarily. Does this make him bad, not really in a way, but as far as the election goes I argue both. If John Kerry weren't flawed in some way, there would be no question as to who would win this Election. Same goes for George Bush, as far as flaws go. But exactly where on your lists does he fall? Maybe even a number...on a scale of 1-10, I'm gonna give him 7.5 Fair enough.

I'm not sure that I'd give him even a 7.5. However, for reasons posted elsewhere (here), I would score our beloved incumbent significantly lower. John Kerry, to me, is not nearly liberal enough. However, my views do not tend to represent a significant proportion of this country, I have found, as they are too liberal for many. Many would argue that this election will be for the better of two evils, and I am inclined to agree. Do I think that John Kerry is not a good leader? No. I just have concerns.

On that note, Kerry would get my vote, and I'd probably give him a 7 on a scale of 1-10. Not bad, but he hasn't really impressed me yet. But, if the link to my previous post didn't tell you, Kerry would not have been my pick - in fact, Dean or Kucinich would probably have been more along the lines I would have liked to see.