Question of the Week!!! (8/24/04)

[Justin]

Okay,

So I think that by far the single greatest change to FIRST was alliances. There are two impacts of alliances that seem to have been over looked (at least in the threads I skimmed). One is that pre-alliances there was no "FIRST Community" if you talked to someone on another team at a regional or sat with another team you were a traitor and conspiring with the enemy. I often think about how many of the friendships I have now in the FIRST Community would simply not have been possible pre-alliances.

Secondly I think another HUGE impact on FIRST in general which was an off shoot of alliances was the concept of "copertition." Pre-alliances everything was raw score. The advent of copertition has it's pros (though I'm loathe to admit them) and cons as with everything. Certainly the idea that your score is dependent on the score of your opponent has forever altered the FIRST landscape (for the worse in my own opinion).

Lastly I'll just say briefly that Rumble at the Rock and in fact the entire Plymouth North Team are entities that will not be replaced. At the time they were the team that I think many other teams wanted to try and emulate in the way they carried themselves, presented themselves to the community. Perhaps a large part of what one them the chairman's award is that the reached out to the FIRST community as a whole before it was perhaps viewed as appropriate (and now even required.)

Sorry for the long winded post. Hopefully you made it here.

-Justin

[Dave Flowerday]

I think the biggest impact was when the championship moved out of a high school gym and into EPCOT. When it was at EPCOT (especially in 95 and 96, when it was inside the park instead of the parking lot), a LOT of people got to see it that otherwise would never have attended. Every single time we crossed with our robot from where the pit area was to the arena (cutting across the main path that travels around the park), people who were just there on vacation would ask what our contraption was for. We'd point them to the stage, with colorful banners and lights and the signature FIRST music and more often than not they'd go sit in the stands and watch for a while. I think being at EPCOT really made it a fun, cool event to show off to prospective sponsors & teams that differentiated itself from a lot of other high-school competitions.

[Matt Attallah]

Originally Posted by Christina

My first thought when I saw that question was alliances. But, '99 was my first year in FIRST, so all I've known are alliances. But this point has been covered real well, so that's all I'll say.

My next thought was Chief Delphi. CD brought together teams from across the country (and beyond!) to share ideas, plans, and hypothetical situations throughout the entire season. This community, I believe, has been an incredible contribution to the growth and evolution of FIRST. I can't imagine what it would be like without CD. And, besides all the technical advantages of being able to share ideas and get great advice and help...FIRST just wouldn't be the same without getting to know people through this forum. I remember when I first met Andy Baker (yes Andy, I still remember ) at the 2001 Nats and he came up to me with Michael and said, "you must be Christina." It was the first time I've ever met anyone from the forum (in person) and I already felt like I knew him. It was great!

Well, that my $0.02. Heh. I can't even remember the last time I replied to a QOTW.

Where you have been hiding at Christina? Life keepin' ya busy?

[Karthik]

There's been a lot of talk about the start of alliances. ChrisH brings up a great story with the collusion during the 1v1v1 matches. Some great robots really got the short end of the stick in that situation, especially the team that hosts this fine website.

I agree that the advent of alliances has had the greatest impact on FIRST, but the specific event I'm thinking has to do with the perfection of the alliance system. When alliances were introduced at the 1999 kickoff, the elimination round alliances consisted of only two teams. Teams were not allowed to pick within the top 8. To further complicate things you were allowed to decline ANY pick.

At the 1999 Great Lakes regional, (the last weekend of the regional season) FIRST called for a vote on whether a third team should be added to alliances. This vote was a result of robots breaking down during the elimination rounds at other regionals, creating a lot of 2 on 1 situations. The results of the vote were overwhelmingly in favour of the three team alliances.

Combining the free decline situation, not being able to pick within the top 8 and third team added to the alliances, created some unfortunate situations at GLR. There were allegations of teams throwing matches to drop out of the top 8. There were allegations of premade alliances. Teams declining everyone in the first round, so they could go in the second round. It was a big mess. Definitely a low point of GP.

So when we went to nationals at EPCOT, Woodie informed us of a new rule change, if you declined, you were done. This basically eliminated premade alliances. It was this improvement that made alliances the great GP promoting system that they've become.

[Christina]

Originally Posted by Matt Attallah

Where you have been hiding at Christina? Life keepin' ya busy?

Yea, life has definitely been keeping me busy. Since I made the move to RIT a couple of years ago, things have gone crazy. I've been doing a lot of "behind-the-scenes" stuff for FIRST though, like the Rochester...ermm...Finger Lakes Regional and the RIT FIRST club and all that good stuff. Now I got my last year of college (stupid 5 year school) and senior design to worry about. But, don't worry, Joseph (Ross) keeps me coming back if he sees anything interesting, and I think I'm around to stay...again.

[Jake177]

Originally Posted by Karthik

At the 1999 Great Lakes regional, (the last weekend of the regional season) FIRST called for a vote on whether a third team should be added to alliances. This vote was a result of robots breaking down during the elimination rounds at other regionals, creating a lot of 2 on 1 situations. The results of the vote were overwhelmingly in favour of the three team alliances.

Keep in mind that the alliance system wasn't completely perfected until 2002. Until then, the backup robot was not required to play in any matches. More often than not, they just got a free ride. But in 2002, FIRST made it manditory for each robot in an alliance to play at least one match each round (unless it was broken).

I think that one of the things that has been overlooked so far is the qualifying system for Nationals. Requiring teams to qualify through their performances at the regionals has made them more competative.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Jake177

Keep in mind that the alliance system wasn't completely perfected until 2002. Until then, the backup robot was not required to play in any matches. More often than not, they just got a free ride. But in 2002, FIRST made it manditory for each robot in an alliance to play at least one match each round (unless it was broken).

On the contrary...
That isn't how the rule is. Even if a robot is broken, it still needs to play!

Don't you find it silly that the BACKUP robot must play?

As the rules stand now, I've seen tons of instances where broken robots are forced to play, while the fully functioning robot sits on the sidelines.

I'd rather see teams get the "Free Ride".
Let's face it, if they're a part of an alliance, they're there for a reason. Even if they don't play, they're ready to go in if they have to.

JV

[Jake177]

I hadn't realized that a broken robot was still obligated to play. In that case, I too would rather see the backup team get a free ride.

Id have to agree on the alliance pickings that started in 1999. Without alliance pickings, it would be totally different.

[Bill Beatty]

Ken

The Indiana Mafia? We are very insulted. Another comment like that and you could wind up having a couple of broken legs.

Mr. Godfather Bill

But thanks for the good words

[Ken Patton]

rutt ro....

umm, I meant "Indiana Mania," yeah, thats it. You know, like Beatle Mania. You guys are awesome, we love you yeah, yeah, yeah!

I wouldn't want to wake up with any portions of Beasts in my vicinity! I promise to pay my respects next time I see you or any of your family members, sir.

Seriously though, the growth from the ground up that has happened in Indiana is pretty cool.

Ken

[Elgin Clock]

I have only been in first since 2001 so as far as the thing that I saw change FIRST the most had to have been the rule introduced in 2002 that said, you can not bring your robot home after a competition.

In 2001, if anyone remembers our 2 "same but different" robots, we needed that time.

[Matt Leese]

I'll answer something completely different. This is something that predates me in FIRST but I know there are a few floating around who can remember this. One of the most significant events in FIRST history happened when there happened to be more than one Regional competition. At first, there was only the regional in New Hampshire. In 1997 (I believe), FIRST added a regional the Mid-Atlantic Regional and the Midwest Regional. Without the adding of these events, FIRST would never have been able to grow to the size it is today. I also found a link to FIRST's press release about it: http://web.archive.org/web/199703032...ws/961029.html

Matt