Question of the Week!!! (9/19/04)

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Andy Grady

Question of the Week (9/19/04): What do you think is the most important element to the creation of a successful game and why?

Water.

[Rosiebotboss]

Is that a hint?????

[David Kelly]

Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss

Is that a hint?????

I knew there was a reason that Little Lavery wouldn't shut up about sand, water and coconuts back at the after IRI dinner at Texas Roadhouse.... this whole Hawaiian shirt theme is starting to make since....

[MissInformation]

I think one of the most important factors of a successful game is how exciting it is, not only for the participants but for the spectators too. I liked the 2004 game, but the first few actual matches I saw, it was not that exciting, there wasn't much action on the field, but once teams got used to the game, it became a very different game. Personally, I thought Stack Attack was a very exciting game, with the robots slamming into the crates in the first 15 seconds, the constant battle to get more boxes on your side and the final fight for king of the hill... it was just all around fun!

Of course, just saying "exciting" is pretty broad, but then, the question doesn't ask what makes a game exciting! But the game could be as simple as drive your robot across the field, and while everyone could probably (I say probably because I will never underestimate my team's ability to make the simplest task confusing ) succeed at that, it would be snooze city. Throw in a couple of trenches, a slippery slope and some rounded objects to move around and things start looking up!

Heidi

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Water.

Surely by that he meant water for team members in the pits. (Thanks, BellSouth!)

As for a successful game, I'd say the key element is the ability for a box-on-wheels robot to play it. For some teams (through circumstances or the realization that their arm just isn't cutting it), it's all they've got. Thus, there has to be a way for a simple robot to play the game well. I'll say through personal eyewitness that it was doable in 2004.

To reinforce what previous people have said, have a combination of simplicity and complexity. For example, the 2004 game had an excellent example of that. The less experienced teams and simple robots could make a positive contribution by corralling balls back into the player station. While the more experienced teams could focus on whether they wanted to go hang, score a capper ball or both. It added a challenge for all levels and thats what is needed year after year to make a good game.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Water.

If you look at the question then you see why this answer. "
What do you think is the most important element to the creation of a successful game and why? " The game design people spend a lot of time thinking about the game. The best place for their relaxation and therefore creativity is the hot tub or on the beach. Therefore water is the most important element to the creation of a successful game.

Well said Dave.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Water.

Water is not an element. It is a molecular combination of 2 elements: 1 part Hydrogen, 2 parts Oxygen.

[edit: 2 parts Hydrogen, 1 part Oxygen]

Sheesh!


AB

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Water is not an element. It is a molecular combination of 2 elements: 1 part Hydrogen, 2 parts Oxygen.

Sheesh!

Everyone knows that there are four elements: earth, wind, fire, and water. Once while in school I heard about a fifth element named "Pete Best," but it turned out that was something completely different.

-dave

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Everyone knows that there are four elements: earth, wind, fire, and water. Once while in school I heard about a fifth element named "Pete Best," but it turned out that was something completely different.

-dave

I don't see any water grouped with Earth, Wind, and Fire. And, Pete Best was not their drummer either.

Double-sheesh!

OK... I might as well answer Andy's question or I'll get in trouble. I think that the most important element to a good FIRST game is that it is easy to understand and entertainable for a spectator to watch.


Andy B.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Everyone knows that there are four elements: earth, wind, fire, and water. Once while in school I heard about a fifth element named "Pete Best," but it turned out that was something completely different.

-dave

Wow. I think we are of the same ...generation?


I drifted off there for a minute...
I'm partial to a game which benefits teams that really work together on a strategy as alliance partners.

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Water is not an element. It is a molecular combination of 2 elements: 1 part Hydrogen, 2 parts Oxygen.

Sheesh!


AB

Water is actually 2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen.
Sheesh!

(sorry, i'm such a dork! )

back to the topic at hand...
One important element of a game is the ability to explain it to someone (non FIRST or rookie) in under 10 seconds. This makes the game much more spectator friendly, and makes going to a competition a lot more fun for someone outside of the FIRST realm. This was one of the great advantages of the 2003 game. It is very easy to explain.

"The robots are trying to get the boxes into their scoring zones. If they can stack the boxes, it multiplies their score by the amount of boxes in their stack. If they get to the top of the ramp at the end of the match, they get extra points."

Thats pretty short isn't it. Three sentences. However, this years game was a lot more complex. It takes me a full 30 seconds to explain it to someone. But this year's game had it's advantages also. It allowed for multiple strategies and robots to win the game; hangers, 2x grabbers, and small ball herders. Each scoring element was important to win. I would like a game that offers different ways to score points.

An interesting element that could be added into this year's game, that I dont think has been done before, would be to add "extreme" conditions on the playing field. Something that would set up "design paradoxes", so to speak. For example, if a game included ways to score points deep underwater, and ways to score points on rocky terrain, and it would be impossible to win the game if you couldn't do both...you would create a very interesting design challenge. It would be hard to design a robot that could swim in deep water AND climb over big rocks. Just a thought....

One other element that I personally believe is important is the autonomous mode. I liked how in 2003, autonomous mode nearly always determined the outcome of the match. Some people didn't like this because it seemed to undermine the importance of the remote control period, but I think it made it more intense; the drivers had to frantically try to move boxes onto their side if autonomous mode didn't go their way. I also think autonomous mode applies in the real world; many robotic technologies today rely on robots that are fully autonomous. The game should include elements that give teams challenges that they may find in the real world, such as autonomous mode. Make the game challenging enough to give a good educational experience to FIRSTers.

Sorry I didn't exactly stick to one element!!

[Andy Grady]

I think the most important element to a successful game is all described in one simple word...momentum.

To explain this, lets look at two of the most successful games in FIRST history, Double Trouble, and Co-opertition FIRST. In double trouble, there were so many ways for the momentum of scoring to shift. In an instant, a team could climb the puck and suddenly the game was shifted towards the climbing alliance. In the next moment, the puck could be moved back across the line to the other alliances side, and once again the momentum changed, making for a very exciting game. Same thing with 2000, there were many ways that the momentum of a round could change. You could hang your robot and the black ball come to mind. It was amazing to see how much of a momentum swing would result from a black ball being removed from a goal, or even more when that ball was brought back to the other alliances goal to put them ahead! The same could be said of last years game with the doubler ball and the bar...so many ways for momentum to change, so many things to have to strategize for.

Lack of momentum sometimes leads to difficult games to understand or follow. Stack Attack was a prime example of this. Though there were ways to quickly change the score, the difficulty to gain momentum through stacking made the game one dimensional, king of the hill.

Of course...I could also agree with Mr. Lavery and say water...but I'm going to once again repeat what Colleen said earlier...footballs!

Good Luck,
Andy Grady

[Aignam]

Good question!

I think that the most important element to the creation of a successful game is action and excitement.

Let's face it---it's good when spectators can keep track of the game, see what's going on, keep score, and so on...but it's better when things are flying, stuff is getting smashed, and FIRST becomes Battlebots + Gracious Professionalism + Woody Flowers instead of half-naked showgirls.

Now, I know that sounded really really stupid, but hear me out!

I think we can all agree that Stack Attack (2003) was the most "bash 'em up" game ever. And some didn't like that, and that's completely understandable. But, in my experience at least, that's been the best spectator game so far. Let's face it---what gets most people (Americans, anyways..) going better than some smashed robots?

Don't get me wrong, I love the games like 2004 where you need an incredible manipulator, an amazing strategy, and so on and so forth---but in terms of what makes a good spectator game---simplicity, excitement, and action. Stack Attack is a perfect example.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by BurningQuestion

Water is actually 2 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen.
Sheesh!

(sorry, i'm such a dork! )

Duh! I gotta check my head. It seems to have some cobwebs in it lately. That is what I get for trying to be a smarty-pants.

Andy B.