Question of the Week!!! (9/26/04)

[Matt_Kaplan1902]

Originally Posted by CourtneyB

I really dont see much rivalry in FIRST. I dont think that my team (111) has much rivalry teams either. The only thing I can think is us and different (or another) team having tye-dye hehe

-Court-

I would say that there is a small Motorola rivalry between 111 and 108. It has somewhat died out, but back in my freshmen year (2002) there definatly was some tension (especially because we were pit neighbors that year at EpCOT).

45 vs. 71 is the best rivalry in FIRST. They always seem to meet each other in the big matches, and they are always hard bought, battle to the end.

[Steve W]

Team 188 and their upstart rival of 1114. It seems that the little sister is always trying to outdo the parent team. Bring it on!!!!

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Kyle45

Although I was a rookie this past year, I noticed some rivalries. The biggest rivalry I saw was 71 and 45. It seemed like, to me, that we always ended up playing them in eliminations and wanting to just dominate against them...but we never did. HAHA It's not really a hateful rivalry in my book, but one that mixes things up and makes it fun to watch. Hope I don't "ruffle anyones feathers" with my comments.

-Kyle

Kyle, you are right, there is a healthy rivalry between 45 and 71. Both teams seem to enjoy it. I think that rivalries are good as long as the competition is left on the carpet. When rivalries turn into teams not liking each other, it is not good.

Originally Posted by MATT_kaplan108

45 vs. 71 is the best rivalry in FIRST. They always seem to meet each other in the big matches, and they are always hard bought, battle to the end.

I am biased, but I definitely agree. The 45-71 rivalry goes way back. A few years ago, Brian Beatty and I sat down and figured out just how many times we went head-to-head, but I have lost track. I'll try to summarize the history between these two teams:

1996: Team 71 starts their journey in FIRST, after being mentored by members of team 45. Team 71 is #1 seed at National Competition.

1999:
Midwest Regional: Team 45 allies with team 111. This duo is soundly defeated by the alliance of team 71 & team 27.
Great Lakes Regional: The alliance of 292-45-235 is beaten in the semi-final round by the 71-27-?? alliance after a tough 3-match set. The final match was decided by a DQ.
National Championship: The alliance of 45-111-84 beats the alliance of 221-71-27 in the semi-finals, in a rough set of matches

2001:
West Michigan Regional: Alliance led by team 71 wins the regional
Midwest Regional: Alliance led by team 71 scores a national high score of 710 in the semi-final rounds against an alliance led by team 45

2002:
Midwest Regional: 71-107-519 alliance meets 111-45-79 alliance in the finals, 71's alliance comes out on top after some incredibly bad breaks for the 111-45-79 alliance.
IRI: (hosted by team 234, 45, 393) 71's alliance is DQed in the finals. Head referee is lead engineer on team 45. (that would be me)

2004:
Championship, Archimedes Division: Alliance of 71-494-435 beats alliance of 716-45-1272 in a hard-fought, 3 match final.
IRI: The finals brought together the alliance of 71-980-269 against 234-45-447. The 71-led alliance came out as the winners, again, after a 3-set match

This rivalry is healthy. We help each other out often, as we share tools, experiences, and ideas (not all, but some). Speaking for team 45, we greatly respect our friendly rivals from the north, and we look forward to many more years of competition.

We have never allied with team 71 in the finals of any competition, while we have been against their alliance 7 times. We are 1-6 in this matchup. It sure would be nice to be with these guys for once.

Andy B.

[Joe Matt]

384 has a few good rivalries and a few bad. I'll let you guys figure out them, since I'm more of a positive guy concerning cross-team relations.

[Alaina]

Originally Posted by Cory

254 and anyone, and 60 and anyone.

It really seems like there's a target attached to their robot, that *everyone* wants to shoot at.

That's exactly what I was going to say. It seems like most teams don't really appreciate the whole dominating-and-winning-absolutely-everything show they run...Hmm...

But, you have to admit, it's considered a great accomplishment if you beat them in a match.

[dlavery]

There are rivalries, and then there are rivalries. How about Team 116 against Teams 57, 118, 122, 233, 254, and 330?

To get to the roots of this one, you have to go back in the day. In 1996 NASA supported only two teams in FIRST (Teams 116 and 120), and we had chartered those teams to find out what FIRST was all about. After the experiences of that year we were hooked, and committed to get the entire agency involved with the program. The decision was made to do this as a part of the Telerobotics Research Program that was in place at the time. We met with all the NASA labs that were conducting robotics research, and suckered them in, er, ah, eh, I mean convinced them, that they should all start teams as part of thier ongoing efforts to get more people interested in robotics. To ease any concerns, we also came up with the funding for all their teams, so they didn't have to worry (too much) about how to get the money to get started.

But along with that came a challenge. In 1997 we were starting new teams at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center (Team 57 with Eleanor Roosevelt High School), NASA Johnson Space Center (118 with Clear Creek Independent School District), NASA Langley Research Center (Team 122 with New Horizons Regional Education Center), NASA Kennedy Space Center (Team 233 with Rockledge High School & Cocoa Beach High School), NASA Ames Research Center (Team 254 with Broadway High School, now with Bellarmine Prep) and NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (Team 330 with Hope Chapel Academy). All of these labs had scores of robotics researchers and engineers at their disposal to help mentor their new teams. Then there was the existing team stuck with NASA Headquarters (Team 116 with Herndon High School) - full of bureaucrats, lawyers and bookkeepers. In theory they wouldn't have a chance against the mentors on the new teams.

So, when you are in a potentially bad competitive situation, what do you do? There is only one answer - make it worse! I issued a challenge to all the new NASA teams: if any of the NASA centers (staffed with really smart engineers, reseachers, and technicians) had their teams beaten in the FIRST competition year-end ranking by the NASA Headquarters (staffed with really devious bureaucrats, lawyers and bookkeepers) team, then we would obviously have to question their technical ability. So, their research funding would be called up for review and they would have to go to the back of the line to submit new research proposals! This would definitely make them take the project seriously and put their full effort in to it!

It was all in fun, but it sure got their attention! And every year since then I get reminded about all the times Team 116 came up with or against any of those original NASA teams during the FIRST season, and the outcome of the matches. Sometimes we win, sometimes they win - but we all win every time. It has been a very good-natured competition, and kept us all interested at multiple levels.

But for some reason, there are not quite as many NASA robotics labs around as there used to be...

-dave

[Kyle Love]

Originally Posted by Andy B.

We have never allied with team 71 in the finals of any competition, while we have been against their alliance 7 times. We are 1-6 in this matchup. It sure would be nice to be with these guys for once.

I agree totally, someday it has to happen. I hope it can happen at nationals next year. I have always wondered how 71 and 45 would to when put together.

-Kyle

[Andy Grady]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I have a feeling Team 126 gealfirce and Team 121 the Rhodes Warriors are on each otehrs lists as well.

There is definately a great rivalry that goes between my former team and the Rhode Warriors. Such a great rivalry that it has pretty much evolved into quite a friendship between members of our teams...though I still love to give D@ve hell about tipping us in 1997 in the Semifinals!

Other good northeast rivals that I know...

88 and 121 (already said but man that is still one heck of a battle every single time)

UTC vs. UTC (Insert any UTC team in either position = instant rivalry)

126 vs 190 (Two simple words...Colleen Shaver! )

And of course we can not forget the most important rivalry of them all....

Northeast vs. Midwest! (This year, the northeast makes its presence felt once again!)

Have fun!
-Andy Grady

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Team 188 and their upstart rival of 1114. It seems that the little sister is always trying to outdo the parent team. Bring it on!!!!

This isn't the most publicized rivalry on CD, but north of the border this is HUGE. Here's the background.

In 1998 Team 188, Woburn Robotics was founded as the first ever Canadian team in FIRST. The team was started by former Canadian Regional Director, Mark Breadner and 2004 Canadian Regional Woodie Flowers Award Winner, Roly Anderson. For years Woburn was known as the only Canadian powerhouse, partly because they were the only Canadian team. In 2002, the Canadian explosion occurred with the start of the Canadian Regional, but 188 was still the only Canadian team who was garnering much attention south of the border.

In 2003 things began to change. Team 1114 was formed out of St. Catharines Engine Plant, about an hour and a half away from Woburn. In their rookie year, they became the first Canadian team other than Woburn to win a robot related award outside of Canada. They went down to Houston, and stacked their way into the minds of everyone. (I'll never forget seeing that stack of seven go up...) For the first time, people were noticing a Canadian team that wasn't Woburn.

During the off-season before 2004, Steve Rourke, the "owner" of Team 1114 decided he wanted 1114 to take things to the next level. Despite his team's success in 2003 he knew his team was still short on FIRST experience. Steve wanted to bring in the best, so he set out to find the most experience FIRST people in Canada. Naturally his search took himself to Team 188. Steve hired to of Woburn's most illustrious alumni, Ian Mackenzie and myself. Myself and Ian were made the "co-general managers" of Team 1114

2004 proved to be a great season for both 1114 and 188. 1114 achieved many things never to accomplished by any Canadian Team. But with the brain drain from 188 to 1114, a true rivalry had begun. The debate over who the best Canadian team raged on throughout the season. (Note that neither team has ever actually won the Canadian Regional...)

The rivalry is great fun for both teams. The link between the Woburn alumni has ensured that the rivalry remains friendly. I know the first place I always went for help this season when in need of a part or a tool was the 188 pit. That being said, there was extra motivation in those matches where we lined up against 188.

The next chapter of the rivalry occurred just recently has Tristan Lall, another Woburn alumni was hired by the engine plant, and will be working directly with Team 1114.

Well that's the history lesson. Here's my favourite quote about the rivalry.

"You start with Woburn (188), then you graduate to Simbotics (1114)." -- Ian Mackenzie

[patrickrd]

Team 639 and 610 always seem to have some good matches against each other at the Canadian... err Greater Toronto... regional. At least in 2002 and 2003, I don't remember 610 there this past year???

[jonathan lall]

Yeah, we've all stopped talking to Tristan. We tend to think of 1114 like a kind of seniors home for washed-out FIRSTers. We wish you the best on your "graduation."

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

Yeah, we've all stopped talking to Tristan. We tend to think of 1114 like a kind of seniors home for washed-out FIRSTers. We wish you the best on your "graduation."

See Jonathan, we see it as moving from your parents basement into a stylish downtown condo... You eventually have to move on. And once you make the move you wonder, "man, why didn't I do this sooner? wow, the high life really is fun." You miss home every once in a while, but the view of the lake and all the fun toys extinguish the home sickness pretty quickly.

[jonathan lall]

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but don't worry Karthik. I already do live in a stylish downtown condo. And I'm on 188. I saw St. Catharines by the way. It's... quaint.

[J Flex 188]

remember, we dont work in a basement anymore. XD. We may not have the condo, but we've got the house rigged up so that it works. It may not have 24 H conceierge service or security (being woburn that it is), but it works well enough to own any of the yuppies that may jump ship to come back and visit. even just a little bit.

remember, mr. breadner came back. some day, you'll all come back

just as an aside, 610 (crescent school) was indeed at CR this year. and they also went to arizona i think. bringing some maple flavour all around. 188 and 610 have a pretty great rivalry as well. from the CR to FLL they've been major players, and its always pretty special to be lined up against them. (They even help out WOJU! Woburn Jr. PS with 2 other lego league teams in addition to the 2 that we do there)

Originally Posted by Karthik

See Jonathan, we see it as moving from your parents basement into a stylish downtown condo... You eventually have to move on. And once you make the move you wonder, "man, why didn't I do this sooner? wow, the high life really is fun." You miss home every once in a while, but the view of the lake and all the fun toys extinguish the home sickness pretty quickly.

[Koko Ed]

I thought about this some more and because FIRST is so unique it's hard to have what can be considered true rivalies (like Red Soxs/ Stankees, Cowboys/'skins and such). The only real rivalry I know of in FIRST is FIRST vs. Battlebots.