Entry Fee Increase---hurting teams

[Lavapicker]

Here is where the mainland teams don't get it....to fly from Hawaii to the nearest regional on the west coast cost almost $600 (when I find a bargain). That's an expense that is non-negotiable...we cannot take a bus, train, rental car if we don't like it. I was upset at our regional last year when a team from a few states over was touted as miracle participant because it had to raise $10,000 to get there. What, they couldn't find a bus?? That wouldn't even cover my airfare! Add in hotel, rental car, shipping (wow, FedEx won't even ship from my Island for free) my students would have to come up with almost $1400 per student to participate. With over half classified as living in poverty I can't ask them to pay much or I lose them or select the elite few who have money. We've been very fortunate the last few years because of major sponsors but even at that we were walking a fine line. After a major sponsor pulled last year after verbally committing to us we found ourselves, me, in debt for $4000. Looking at $6000 more by December just to enter was too big of a mountain. It just saddens me because we have a great system going..committed teachers, students willing to learn and work hard, great engineer and community support but we can't sustain the $20,000 per year costs so our students miss out. I won't say lose out because we are still doing other less expensive competitions but I wish our students could see the "superbowl" of engineering that FIRST is, I know I could turn more of them on to engineering and technology.
Oh well, as someone once told me..stop complaining..even if things look bleak and we never get to go back to FIRST, look where we live! Hawaii no ka oi.
Aloha,

[Koko Ed]

I think one of the main reasons the original seven(?) have survived so long is solid sponsorship.
What also helps is proximity to competiton. It is easiest to see an explosion of rookie teams where there are local regionals (such as Finger Lakes this year) because they don't have to play for traveling or lodging and such. Just the competition. Teams off the mainland are in dire straits and unless there is significant industry around or government support they really struggle to get by.

[Chris Fultz]

Two things to (hopefully) be of help.

1) FIRST announced grants today for $1000 to new or veteran teams. Your primary contact should have the details, but the basics are you have to apply for the grant, and you have to use it as part of your entry fee for 1 regional. You can only be going to one regional - and not the championships.
The focus seems to be on struggling teams and I think it is a great move by FIRST.

2) Everyone on Team 234 is expected to find a $250 sponsor. Some find more than one, some can't get any, but most are able. This does several things - it gets all students out talking about and promoting the program and explaining what it is, it introduces many new people to FIRST, it gets additional 'ownership' in the team because everyone has done something extra to help with funding, and, it helps finance the team. Sponsors get their names on our T-shirts or on plaques, depending on what we do each season. In the fall, everyone who supported us gets a wall certificate, team photo or something else as out Thank You to display. Four small sponsors like this covers the $1000 increase in the entry fee. It is also kinda cool to go into a local business and see a team picture on the wall !

[gsensel]

During my time on team 45, 1998 -2002, every year we went to regionals for a small ($50-100/ regional, someone will correct me if I'm wrong) fee, and we paid half of our cost for nationals, normally about 300-400. All of this could be covered out of pocket or through many fundraising opportunities through out the year. Much of the rest of the cost was from our sponsor, which is Delphi, or additional fundraising done beyond our need.

So my question is how do other teams handle this cost?

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I'll note, again, that Long Island is hardly rural. Brief research reveals that Nassau and Suffolk counties alone have a population of 2.7 million between them. That isn't counting Brooklyn and Queens. We'll assume 10 of your teams are in Suffolk, however. That's a population of 1.4 million in an area of 911 sq. mi. Given 10 teams, that's a base of 140,000 people per team in an area of 91 sq. mi.

Now, apologies to Tonya, but I'm using her as an example. Ponca City has a population of 26,000. Kay county has a population of 48,000 in 911 sq. mi. That is quite a bit of area to cover for a third the amount of people. Not to mention that I'm sure Suffolk county still attracts more corporations than Kay county.

As an aside, I note that it appears the median houshold income around Long Island is about twice that of Ponca City.

So, rural America faces very large hurdles to competing in the FIRST competition. If you had to do a build season in the red and do all this other stuff, I'm sure you can see that it has to be atleast 3 times as hard for Tonya's team.

Then look to Grundy for inspiration. I don't know the entire story, there are others on here who know it much better then I, but they are your rural America. Grundy is in southwest Virginia, old coal mining county where the mines are closing and people leaving. Not a lot of money there, but Grundy pulls it off.

Another favorite FIRST memory of mine is from Nationals in 2000. One team had their sponsors listed on the back of their shirts. All of them, in about a 15 point font took up the entire vertical length of the shirt. Including Linda's Lingerie Shop (actual name forgotten, but something like that).

You may have to look in some unconventional places, but there is money to be found.


Wetzel

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I think one of the main reasons the original seven(?) have survived so long is solid sponsorship.

Not for all of them...

Team 20 has been through quite a few sponsors.
In their case, the reason they survived is the INCREDIBLE dedication of one teacher, and a few community volunteer engineers.

If you're willing to work for something. You can do anything.


Kudos to Paul Kane.
13 years down, and still going strong.

John

[Adam Y.]

I'll note, again, that Long Island is hardly rural. Brief research reveals that Nassau and Suffolk counties alone have a population of 2.7 million between them. That isn't counting Brooklyn and Queens. We'll assume 10 of your teams are in Suffolk, however. That's a population of 1.4 million in an area of 911 sq. mi. Given 10 teams, that's a base of 140,000 people per team in an area of 91 sq. mi.

Your numbers are probably skewed. I really doubt that the population of Long Island is that evenly distrubuted. In fact it can't be. The majority of people probably reside closer to Nassau than Suffolk.

As an aside, I note that it appears the median houshold income around Long Island is about twice that of Ponca City.

That mainly relates to the fact that everything in Long Island is twice as expensive as it is in Ponca City. It's proximity to the city makes it the prime place for every single bussiness to rip everyone off. Also the only major company (Lockhead Martin??) on Long Island is sponsoring all of the teams last I knew.

[Denman]

the entrance fee isn't the problem for us.... microsoft have generously given us the entree fee for the last 3 years... however, the cost is going up every year. In 2 years we will probably not compete as each person will have to pay and extra £150 (~$270) for visa's . When your taking about 30 people with £150 each thats an extra £4500 pounds (which is more than the entry fee . . . . . (~$8,140)) so we will most likely not compete then (unless they host a regional here in europe / uk)

[GeorgeTheEng]

I can see where that would be problem. What you could do is work to create enough teams in Hawaii that there is a base for a Hawaii regional. :> Then maybe convince some well funded teams to attend rather then going to Nationals or somewhere else that involves travel.

I for one would volunteer at that regional.

Originally Posted by Lavapicker

Here is where the mainland teams don't get it....to fly from Hawaii to the nearest regional on the west coast cost almost $600 (when I find a bargain)...

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Lavapicker

Here is where the mainland teams don't get it....to fly from Hawaii to the nearest regional on the west coast cost almost $600 (when I find a bargain).

My grandparents are looking to go back to Oahu for a reunion this fall and found $350 round trip tickets on Continental. From the east coast.

If you could cut airfare almost in half, would you bring some aloha way east?

(As an aside, the team from Mililani , where I happened to do some growing, traded me a pineapple for a some Krispy Kremes. That was the best ever.)

Wetzel

[Denman]

Originally Posted by Lavapicker

to fly from Hawaii to the nearest regional on the west coast cost almost $600 (when I find a bargain).

Using the cheapest tickets i can find currently, its going ot cost us $325 each way (so thats $650 per student) (using cheapest flights, but excluding group discount)

Originally Posted by Lavapicker

my students would have to come up with almost $1400 per student to participate. ,

using our estimate of £850 / person ,( thats $1,500 ) without the sponsorship. Currently we are looking at £350-400 ($630-725)a person if we raise the expected amount and take into account everything we can think of ... if only the airline would sponsor us . . .

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Your numbers are probably skewed. I really doubt that the population of Long Island is that evenly distrubuted. In fact it can't be. The majority of people probably reside closer to Nassau than Suffolk.
That mainly relates to the fact that everything in Long Island is twice as expensive as it is in Ponca City. It's proximity to the city makes it the prime place for every single bussiness to rip everyone off. Also the only major company (Lockhead Martin??) on Long Island is sponsoring all of the teams last I knew.

You're correct, the population isn't that evenly distributed. Suffolk county is less densely populated than Nassau. It has 1.3 million people in just 287 sq. mi. So a team would only have to cover 28.7 sq. mi. instead of 90 something. Also, a $70K salary in Suffolk is about equivalent to a $40K salary in a Ponca City kinda of area. (Suffolk, NY --> Altus, OK via salary.com) So people in Suffolk are making about 33% more than those in Ponca City, relatively.

Also, I am well aware that FIRST has many success stories among rural and inner-city teams. An important point to remember if that we mostly hear just from the success stories. We hear from the Ponca City and Grundy teams that work their tails off each year to get enough funding to compete and succeed at it. We don't typically hear from teams that can't raise enough funds or the teams that aren't formed at all because there isn't $10K of funding in their area.

Finally, to those of you that have team members pay for travel expenses, fundraise, etc, if that's what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that's great. My team thinks that our purpose is to inspire the students and community to be interested in science and engineering. We don't think that sending students door to door to raise funding is a good way to do this, nor is it conducive to our students schoolwork. Our main sponsor is very interested in the welfare of our students, and would actually be upset if we had then doing major amounts of fundraising or if they had to pay their way to a competition. That's our philosophy, and that's where my arguments are coming from.

[Joe Matt]

This is getting REALLY ugly now guys, I think we might need Lavery to comment on this or some other FIRST official.

[Ian W.]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Finally, to those of you that have team members pay for travel expenses, fundraise, etc, if that's what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that's great. My team thinks that our purpose is to inspire the students and community to be interested in science and engineering. We don't think that sending students door to door to raise funding is a good way to do this, nor is it conducive to our students schoolwork. Our main sponsor is very interested in the welfare of our students, and would actually be upset if we had then doing major amounts of fundraising or if they had to pay their way to a competition. That's our philosophy, and that's where my arguments are coming from.

And for the last time I'll say this: FIRST does stand for "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." However, integral parts of science and technology are finding funding to pursue science and technology, that's part of the competition, part of preparing high school students for what the real world will be like. Rarely do you just get all the money and resources you need to accomplish a project. Due to this, my former team, rather unknowingly, began to work in fundraising as a major portion for thte club, and I know it's definitely given me, and many of the other students on the team, and much better view of how the world works.

Bottom line, if you're willing to rely on your one main sponsor, that's great, but what happens when they fold? What happens when that main sponsor is gone? Will your team still be around, because students have been going to every single business in town, asking for small donations? As Jeff said, there are some teams that get their money from every store in town, a little bit from each one, and have a sponsors list that can barely fit on the back of a shirt! If they can get the money they need by going, effectively, door to door, and then go and build a robot, I think the kids on that team are doing amazing, and sure, it's probably not conducive to their schoolwork, but it'll definitely help them gain a broader understanding of how the world works, and honestly, I find that a lot more important than knowing something like L'Hopitals Rule.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by JosephM

This is getting REALLY ugly now guys, I think we might need Lavery to comment on this or some other FIRST official.

I don't see it getting ugly. There is no name calling or flaming. There is two different viewpoints, and even understanding that they do it differently, "if that's what it takes for your team to make it and your team is okay with that, then that's great"


One is that FIRST students shouldn't have to spend a lot of time fundraising. They don't see going door-to-door to fundraise, or coming up with money from their own pocket is not a good way to get students and the community excited in science and technology and takes away from homework time.

Another is that FIRST is not just a robot building competition and that it is also a business competition to follow the 'real world'. Research\project funding can be hard to come by, and this is a taste of what is to come and preparation for it.


Wetzel