National Championship or National Chairman's

[ngreen]

Originally Posted by Figment

This year I hope we can bring home the 1st place medals and show our school that Robotics can be cool, maybe spark some interest and get some more community support

I thought the pink would be spark enough...Maybe if you win FIRST will make special pink championship metals for you guys.

i have to agree 100% winning the national championship does more for first than national chairmans.

I will agree it makes it easier for team to find support. It doesn't make it more possible for that team to spread FIRST a lot though.. Sure you will get the interest of business men and techies...mostly. Let's name programs FIRST has been on: CNN, NASA TV, Tech TV, CBS 60 minutes, Discovery Channel, ESPN2. We are trying to reach out to high school students and not everyone gets these channels (for instance I would have only been able to learn about FIRST through CBS) and most of these channels wouldn't have a giant viewing audience of people who can start FIRST teams and who will follow up. So it leaves us with the best way to spread FIRST still lies with the teams. And so the Chairman's probably does a better job at spreading FIRST. Until FIRST hits a more mainstream audience more often it will continue this way. I think people realize it is easier for their team to come home after winning a world championship and getting money and support from their community but it doesn't make it any more possible or more likely that they will come back and spread FIRST and its ideals. IMHO.

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by ngreen

I thought the pink would be spark enough...Maybe if you win FIRST will make special pink championship metals for you guys.



I will agree it makes it easier for team to find support. It doesn't make it more possible for that team to spread FIRST a lot though.. Sure you will get the interest of business men and techies...mostly. Let's name programs FIRST has been on: CNN, NASA TV, Tech TV, CBS 60 minutes, Discovery Channel, ESPN2. We are trying to reach out to high school students and not everyone gets these channels (for instance I would have only been able to learn about FIRST through CBS) and most of these channels wouldn't have a giant viewing audience of people who can start FIRST teams and who will follow up. So it leaves us with the best way to spread FIRST still lies with the teams. And so the Chairman's probably does a better job at spreading FIRST. Until FIRST hits a more mainstream audience more often it will continue this way. I think people realize it is easier for their team to come home after winning a world championship and getting money and support from their community but it doesn't make it any more possible or more likely that they will come back and spread FIRST and its ideals. IMHO.

here is a great reason why winning the national title is better. Most Schoolboards want to see results. Football, chess and ect... When i go visit a school and if there focus is on winning they like to hear from winners on how they too can become that good (not saying we are that good but it is perception). Ha HAaaaaa low and behold we have another plan and that is get the true word of first out. By getting a schoolboard or anyone that writes checks to a first comp i would bet my paycheck that i will get them involved. Once people see what kids really get out of it then they become firstalolics. But we live in a world where all anyone cares about is winning. HELL why we first started because i though it owuld be fun and we could win and we saw it on espn. But soon after going to my first few comps did i see what the real deal was.

[Ali Ahmed]

I'm going to have to say Championship over Chairmans because we already won the Chairmans Award. The Chairmans award is great and all, like you can get to go to small places like the Paris Air Show and do small favors for a lesser know Mr. Dean Kamen, but I would also like to win the Championship becuse it is just another goal to fulfill.

[OZ_341]

O.K. ! I really should be packing to leave but I just have to respond.

I think both have equal importance.

You have a pointless program unless "design success" and "on-field success" is your ultimate goal. So in this case the Championship is the ultimate prize.

However, the soul of your program lies in Chairman's. Because this effort gives your program a larger purpose. A purpose bigger than your team.

Also in terms of community support and corporate donations your best bet is also to maintain a solid community-based program.

As the team's fundraising coordinator, I can tell you for sure that our supporters are NOT interested in our win-loss record. They want to know two basic things :
1) How is my donation helping the kids?
2) How is my donation impacting my community?

Everything else in terms of on-field success and awards is pure gravy.

That being said, our team does smile more when we are winning!! ;-)

Good luck in Atlanta! let the games begin!

[Michael R. Lee]

Originally Posted by OZ_341

However, the soul of your program lies in Chairman's. Because this effort gives your program a larger purpose. A purpose bigger than your team.

Also in terms of community support and corporate donations your best bet is also to maintain a solid community-based program.

As the team's fundraising coordinator, I can tell you for sure that our supporters are NOT interested in our win-loss record. They want to know two basic things :
1) How is my donation helping the kids?
2) How is my donation impacting my community?

Couldn't have said it better. I was with Erin at IMAPS convention and those are the questions at least I was asked besides, what does this robot do. They wanted know what kind of impact we are making in the community and the students. The Dean of the College of Engineering (COE), Dean Soyster, here at Northeastern asks me the same things. Yes he'd love for us to win Championships, awards, etc.... as it gives PR to the NU and the COE but also he understands that this is a program for high school students and we are trying to impact them. (course he also wants to know if any are going to to go to NU when they graduate but that's not related to this discussion).

I think FIRST has Championship as a short time goal (it also involves luck too) and Chairman's as your long term goal. As your program ages, it should be an example to the other teams regardless of what you've won, where your team has gone, etc....

[Pat Roche]

This debate really got me thinking....I really do hold the Chairmens and the Championship on an equal plateau. The reason is not because I am deeply involved in my own team's ventures into each. It stems more from the fact that the Chairmans is more business and inspiration driven while the Championship shows incredible inginuity and human excellence in design and control. And my take on FIRST is about the business of technology and inspiring young people into this business. Bpth winning the Championship and the Chairmens shows success in this program.

Just my take on things


-Pat

[Alfred Thompson]

The Championship is just about the robot. The Chairman's award is about the whole team. I think we'd have come to Atlanta to try for the Chairman's award (we won at our regional) even if we had to leave the robot at home.

[AustinPowers]

I am a 3 year mentor, with an engineering masters degree, from a veteran team just as Chief Delphi, Baxter Bomb Squad and many others. I see that everyone needs to show results from the completion since the schools and companies see only results. I agree that results need to be the focus, so that teams can convince administrators and companies that First is worth continuing and First is as good as sports programs. As a veteran team member I wish to campaign for a next level. I say this because after winning there is an unwritten rule that your team can not win again in things other than the robot completion. The kids are new every other year and that fact is over looked in most First rules. The mentors are not and this needs to be a focus of future chairman’s awards and such. Black listing teams will be the “Death of FIRST.” This is the problem for the future of FIRST. I warn that this needs to be address by all veteran teams. Not a destroy approach and force teams in giving up their name and number and starting again. What I see first saying like telling an NCAA team that you can only win one national award in your life time and no more. I am sure that every college will agree that having a team is not worth just that one win. The chairman’s award is a way of making sure the teams are replicating and growing first. So, by “word of mouth” First may fail if it is know that the teams have no more to win. I can not stand by and let this happen! Can you? I know that not all students will be engineers in the traditional disciplines, but doctors, lawyers and many other disciplines of engineering. Promote this!

I suggest and welcome comments to what I am about to suggest. Lets create another level for the veteran teams. It may be an added level of complying for the games and chairman’s awards and the like awards. Not the death by winning. The idea is this veteran teams will have status of input to many First decisions and voting rights, not to complicate the bureaucracy of meetings for first. This is for added input from that’s with experience from the inside. The game will have an added requirement, such as a particular task that only these teams will be allowed to do. This may require an additional tournament level, but based on the same game as the others. Example, the teams that qualify can get approved to perfect the autonomous mode. This will require a mile stone to be passed/approved by first. Then if this is reached, you will have an extra amount of time say two weeks to perfect the additional autonomous task. This will set us apart from the rookie teams.

In the chairman’s side of things, FIRST could require direct replication of the veterans teams knowledge by adopting a 2 or more year team and growing them to win an award and showing community growth of FIRST. First can become as popular as sports this way. The team may gain points some way to compete against one another in the accomplishments of growth. There is money donations for the cause for spreading the word about FIRST if it becomes as popular as sports. We all know it can.

Lets create the next level of FIRST together veteran teams. Please pass on my words if you agree to the people that want to make a difference. Dean Kamen always comes by to check on our team each time he is where we are in location. Mr. Kamen worked for Baxter at one time, a still gets lots of money from our company in royalties. So, I hope that he will listen to this call of the next level. And request input from the veteran teams. He is a master and we have met his requirements, thus it is only fair to make us masters as well, maybe?

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by JVN

If FIRST told you to jump off a bridge... would you?

Only as a fundraiser for my team.. I mean why not, I already shaved my head when we won a regional.*


<-- *Note lack of hair on smiley & expression. That was me this past March.

[Kyle Love]

Originally Posted by JVN

If FIRST told you to jump off a bridge... would you?

ABSOLUTELY......who wouldn't? I would go down chanting "Let's all go nuts, ROBOTS ROBOTS!!" like 461. They had me saying that even when they weren't...very very catchy!

-Kyle

[Rich Kressly]

With all due respect, it's not "blacklisting" at all. And it's not an "unwritten rule" anymore. In the 2004 manual and documents sent to all hall of fame teams it's all spelled out very clearly. The Hall of Fame is a special place and a chance for the kids to meet special people and be held up as role models for the entire program. The same submission is required to receive Hall of Fame status each year and these entries provide examples for others to follow. My experience with 103 showed that all of our team mentors worked harder AFTER winning the Chairman's Award even knowing we couldn't win it again, because we all knew the importance of upholding the honor and obligation that comes with the award. I'm not sure what teams this means death to at all - 22. 47, 103, 151, 175, 191, 254 and the others haven't gone anywhere - and that lifetime invite to the Championship is a pretty sweet deal considering the qualification process. This was discussed at length last year in the latter parts of this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=26927

Originally Posted by AustinPowers

I am a 3 year mentor, with an engineering masters degree, from a veteran team just as Chief Delphi, Baxter Bomb Squad and many others. I see that everyone needs to show results from the completion since the schools and companies see only results. I agree that results need to be the focus, so that teams can convince administrators and companies that First is worth continuing and First is as good as sports programs. As a veteran team member I wish to campaign for a next level. I say this because after winning there is an unwritten rule that your team can not win again in things other than the robot completion. The kids are new every other year and that fact is over looked in most First rules. The mentors are not and this needs to be a focus of future chairman’s awards and such. Black listing teams will be the “Death of FIRST.” This is the problem for the future of FIRST. I warn that this needs to be address by all veteran teams. Not a destroy approach and force teams in giving up their name and number and starting again. What I see first saying like telling an NCAA team that you can only win one national award in your life time and no more. I am sure that every college will agree that having a team is not worth just that one win. The chairman’s award is a way of making sure the teams are replicating and growing first. So, by “word of mouth” First may fail if it is know that the teams have no more to win. I can not stand by and let this happen! Can you? I know that not all students will be engineers in the traditional disciplines, but doctors, lawyers and many other disciplines of engineering. Promote this!

I suggest and welcome comments to what I am about to suggest. Lets create another level for the veteran teams. It may be an added level of complying for the games and chairman’s awards and the like awards. Not the death by winning. The idea is this veteran teams will have status of input to many First decisions and voting rights, not to complicate the bureaucracy of meetings for first. This is for added input from that’s with experience from the inside. The game will have an added requirement, such as a particular task that only these teams will be allowed to do. This may require an additional tournament level, but based on the same game as the others. Example, the teams that qualify can get approved to perfect the autonomous mode. This will require a mile stone to be passed/approved by first. Then if this is reached, you will have an extra amount of time say two weeks to perfect the additional autonomous task. This will set us apart from the rookie teams.

In the chairman’s side of things, FIRST could require direct replication of the veterans teams knowledge by adopting a 2 or more year team and growing them to win an award and showing community growth of FIRST. First can become as popular as sports this way. The team may gain points some way to compete against one another in the accomplishments of growth. There is money donations for the cause for spreading the word about FIRST if it becomes as popular as sports. We all know it can.

Lets create the next level of FIRST together veteran teams. Please pass on my words if you agree to the people that want to make a difference. Dean Kamen always comes by to check on our team each time he is where we are in location. Mr. Kamen worked for Baxter at one time, a still gets lots of money from our company in royalties. So, I hope that he will listen to this call of the next level. And request input from the veteran teams. He is a master and we have met his requirements, thus it is only fair to make us masters as well, maybe?

[petek]

Perhaps FIRST needs a "Lifetime Achievement" award - a WFA for teams if you will - for teams to aspire to after Chairmans. What I have in mind would not necessarily be awarded every year - just when a team has made measureable, substantial contributions to furthering FIRST's goals over a period of years. Would that be what's needed to challenge the students of the Chairman's teams to even higher achievement?

(Or has this been floated before?)

[KelliV]

Chairmans All the way! Our team won the Championship in 2003 and it was awesome but I think that the chairman's would be a better honor and shows how a team really works hard and displays the principals of FIRST. I think that the teams that win Chairman's could end up at the bottom of the seed list and would still be recognized as the best programs in FIRST.

[suneel112]

Although I think it is much more prestigious to win the National Chairman's Award, it would be much more fun to see your team win the 12 or more matches to put you on top. That is why I voted for National Champion.

[preussrobotics]

I've got to go with Chairman's. It's an easy choice considering the effect that each award would have on others. The Chairman's Award indicates that you've changed your whole community. The Championship would be great, but really only effects my team. There's no comparison.