Andymark.biz

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

shouldn't everyones goal to learn how to build robots/engineering etc... NOT just to easily build a robot that is reliable and therefore you can easily win competitions....yet not learn so much..?

A large part of engineering is about building reliable products. Sometimes the most effective way of doing this involves purchasing components. Should we ban extruded aluminum because it just snaps together with a few gussets? We could force everyone to weld their own aluminum frames, as it would teach them more about welding and fabrication? I see purchasing an AndyMark transmission in the same light.

Plus there's much to be learned from these prebuilt mechanisms. 1114 & 1503 have already purchased two AndyMark shifters, and rookie team members have taken them apart and reassembled them. This was a invaluable learning experience for every student who took part. Remember, there are many differents path to obtaining knowledge. There's no need to pigeonhole the process.

Originally Posted by Salik Syed

also for those who don't really have that much money for transmissions.... hmm..... what if they make a rule that says only a certain amount of money can be spent on one individual product?

That rule already exists...

<R75> The total cost of all non-Kit items may not exceed $3,500.00 USD. No individual item may exceed $400.00....

[Salik Syed]

yeah i was just thinking what if they lower it to like 340$ it is not like its totally impossible...! that would be disappointing if we did decide to purchase the trannys.... i am actually for purchasing them for our team simply cuz we want to be competitive and not fix our tranny and i am kinda lazy....

[dlavery]

Since my name was brought up earlier in this thread, I will go ahead and throw in my two cents worth (note: this is my opinion only, and in no way represents any discussions FIRST may or may not be having on this topic).

First off, right up front I have to say that I really don't like where we all are on this. Oh, don't get me wrong - I don't have any problem at all with what AndyMark is offering (more on this in a moment). But I don't like the current system that basically allows you to buy and bolt on pretty much anything from any source that you can find. I was a very big fan of the FIRST competition of 10 years ago, where you had to build your entire robot from the contents of the kit, a small amount of credit with Small Part Inc., and a very select set of "additional materials." Dean Kamen's philosophy at the time was very clearly stated when he said "we want to see what happens when we make you use parts for purposes for which they were never intended." The solutions that teams developed at that time were among the most creative, innovative, and occasionally astounding systems I had seen built in quite a while. As a competitor, it was an amazing experience and I really miss that competition.

But, that said, we are where we are. Given the system that is in place, it is incumbent upon all of us to make the very best of it that we can. One of the clearly stated goals of FIRST is to expand the program so that it becomes a common element of our culture, and through that mechanism, spread understanding and appreciation for science and technology. One approach to this is to help teams raise the level of the competition so that the competition itself is as exciting and inspirational as it can possibly be (to the casual observer, and not just to the teams). Turning the FIRST Robotics Competition into something that really can interest the vast unwashed masses, and mass media, will require that we increase the caliber of the competition itself and the robots that compete. This is not going to happen with robots that are moving piles of rain gutter and bicycle fenders held together with bailing wire. It is going to happen with machines that are well designed, well built, and able to compete. It will happen when we raise our standards from "success is building a robot that can just get out on the field" to "success is playing the game and being a good competitor - and doing it with a robot."

Toward that end, anything that comes along that allows teams to build better robots or compete at a higher level is a good thing. If a new vendor appears with a set of products that raises the quality and competitiveness of the robots on the field, as competitors we have only three ways to respond. We can ignore them and continue to use the tools and methods used so far, and maintain approximately the current level of competition. Or, we can take advantage of their wares and incorporate them into our robots, presumably making our robots better in the process and thereby raising the quality of the competition. Or we can say to ourselves "well now that EVERYONE will have access to capabilities that used to be reserved for only the very top teams, the only way to stay ahead of the crowd is to get to work and develop the NEXT great quantum improvement in competition robot technology" - a step that will set the bar even higher than before and force a quantum leap in the quality of the competition.

In short, I think that having options like the AndyMark products available to teams will positively impact the overall quality and caliber of the competitions, and end up increasing our probability of reaching and inspiring an even larger audience. For the teams at the lower end of the scale, it will help them to become better able to get out on the field and be competitive. The middle-class teams will be able to go head-to-head with the top-tier teams and compete like there is no tomorrow. Top-tier teams will be challenged to come up with new technologies to stay ahead of the commercial products and the rest of the teams. And if in the end the students are inspired and more of the public becomes aware of the program, and people gain more appreciation for engineering, how can that not be a good thing?

-dave

[Matt Attallah]

After catching up on this thread - I am also going to put in my few words in here.

Shame on some of you people.

1. This is an Andy Baker and Mark Koors development. Any type of 'poor judgment' should automatically be dismissed. I have met Andy a few times and (If I recall right) I have met Mark also. VERY, VERY nice people that - in my heart - carry what FIRST means and they have no intent of doing wrong knowingly against FIRST. Geez guys - comon - A-N-D-Y B-A-K-E-R. Need me to write it out in purple crayon?

2. Say they do sell it to some sources out-side of FIRST. So? Do they not deserve something for 1. their hard work and 2. I'm sure something (if not all) will some how make it's way back to a FIRST related event. Give them a break.

Leave them alone I say. I'm in TOTAL favor of what they do and I hope they can take it on a National Level. I'm rootin' for ya Andy. I see no fowl play...

Sorry if I seem a little irrated. It's after 2AM on Thanksgiving. Just alittle tired...

[DougHogg]

In the 2003 season , our team had more engineering resources than we did this past season, and we designed our own shifting system (involving shifting between large and small wheels). For 2004, one of our engineers was away for the whole season on a project and another was up to his neck in a vital project locally. So we used Team 716's 2003 non-shifting gear box design from the Chief Delphi White Papers. We also used a modifed version of Team 25's 6 wheel design that we learned about from the Cheezy Poofs and Team 60. We got gyro code from Team 492 (via Chief Delphi). Our mechanical engineer said we had to keep our robot really simple this year. Well we had an amazing year that wouldn't have happened without the information that we got from other teams. Question: If we were to prevent teams from buying gear boxes, should we then ban getting gear box designs from other teams via Chief Delphi?

The truth is, the FIRST Competition has been evolving all along as teams share their knowledge. And the competition needs to evolve for reasons that dlavery mentioned above and also because the field of robotics inself is evolving and we need to keep pace so that our students are learning at a level that is in keeping with the requirements of jobs in this and other technical fields in the society.

If we were teaching automotive design, it is unlikely that we would make the students build their own generators. It wouldn't be a terrible thing for them to know how to do that, but to be competitive in the future, they will need to know how to find, acquire and integrate such parts into their systems.

I am sure there will be times when I look back fondly at the good old days of FIRST when we shifted by switching the drill motor transmission (my first year), but the future is ahead of us, and we are helping to prepare students for that future.

There will be lots of future challenges to take the place of the challenge of designing a shifting gear box. (I am quite sure that our robots will require more programming in the future, and that is as it should be because more and more of our society will involve computer programmed devices.)

With the number of teams that we have now, it is vital for our competition to become much more audience friendly so that we will get more exposure and thus more sponsors who will benefit from that exposure and thus be able to justify supporting a team or a regional. Otherwise, we will run out of sponsors and many new teams will have a very rough time.

That which doesn't grow, will shrink, and I don't think any of us want a smaller FIRST. In fact, I hope that one day all students will have the option to participate on a FIRST team.

So thanks Andy and Mark for contributing to FIRST's evolution and expansion.

[Kit Gerhart]

The availability of AndyMark transmissions makes it possible for teams without fancy shop facilities to do what teams WITH such facilities have been able to do all along. To me, that is a good thing. For well-supported teams like mine, the use of pre-made transmissions can allow us to concentrate more on other aspects of designing and and building our robot. At this point, I don't know if we will be using AndyMark transmissions or not. It will mostly be up to our "chief machinist" at KSC.

Also, if anyone who might be in the Florida "Space Coast" area would like to see an AM transmission, planetary, or wheel "in person," I have one each of them that I can show (or sell) you.

[ChrisH]

With all of the other heavyweights around here weighing in, I figure I might as well add my 2 shekels.

First of all, I'm more in agreement with Dave and the "Future through the Past" crowd. I LIKED the limited KOP and AML (additional materials list) and thought it was a good thing. Because it forces you to become more creative. But I also understand that Dave and I are probably the only two hold-outs left, and that SPI just couldn't handle the volume anymore. We're growing up and maybe we just can't do things the way we used to anymore. A limited KOP and AML still require thousands of items which are sometimes only produced in hundreds. So only the first few teams get what they need and everybody else has to make do.

So, since the vast majority seem to be for open markets, I am willing to put my personal preferences aside for the sake of others. (This is sometimes called graciousness, at other times it is called Love). If we are to have an "open market" for robot parts, then AndyMark is a logical development.

Given the current conditions not only do I approve of AndyMark, I hope to be imitating them in a small way in the near future.

I am in the process of designing something that I think most teams would find useful. A set of hardware for mounting and using encoders. This will include gears to mount on the encoder shaft and mating gears to mount on the shaft to be measured. All will be made from Nylon, so it will have good durability without being very heavy. A typical encoder gear will probably weigh about the same as four 1/2"dia holes in 1/8" thick aluminum. I am currently basing the design on the Grayhill 63R series encoders.

We realized the need for a better mounting system after our encoders failed this year. Due to some unique circumstances, it is easiest for us to make them out of plastic, and it is little trouble for us to make 20 or 30 rather than one or two. So we thought we would make them available to other teams.

We are still negotiating on fabrication costs and figuring out distribution and other issues, so I can't tell you the price yet, but it won't be unreasonable. Heck, we don't even have a name for the venture yet. If you have a need for other DLPPs (Dumb Little Plastic Parts) that other teams might need as well, contact me and we might include them in the product line.

ChrisH

[DougHogg]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Given the current conditions not only do I approve of AndyMark, I hope to be imitating them in a small way in the near future.

I am in the process of designing something that I think most teams would find useful.
ChrisH

"Teams inventing new products for other teams"––now that sounds like a worthwhile evolution to me.

I picture a time when there will be 5 or 6 gear box designs available and teams deciding which one (if any) to use, and then working on their own design for sale.

In fact, lately I have been thinking that our team should market something to do with robotics as a means of helping to fund our team. I was inspired by a group connected with Team 968 RAWC who created a robot for the police department. Also I believe that Team 696, the Circuit Breakers, made a robot for a group in India. (Edit: I forgot to mention the twin girls from Alaska who, according to Wired News, invented a robot to help rescue people who had fallen through the ice. They won a $50,000 prize in the Westinghouse Science Competition and are working on marketing their invention.)

"FIRST teams as manufacturers as opposed to only being consumers" sounds like a great step toward another whole dimension for all of us. Who do we thank for this great idea? AndyMark.

Hm...I wonder what we could make for sale? I gotta go check out those AndyMark gear boxes.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by DougHogg

Also I believe that Team 696, the Circuit Breakers, made a robot for a group in India.

That is correct. If anyone is interested, you can read a little paragraph about it under "Team Projects" on this page.

[Derek Bessette]

I think the gearboxes are a great idea!!

Team 1114 has received two shifting and two of the planetary gearboxes for this years off-season projects. This year we are starting a new team (1503) with a possibility of helping another rookie team (yet to be announced). With this kind of growth in our area these gearboxes are going to be a excellent tool. We have used them as a demo with all of the new rookies and our veterans have been able to incorporate them in their designs of a new drive system. In the end these gearboxes will save us a lot of machining time (most of which wouldn't have been able to be done at the school because of lack of the right equipment). This allows us more time to try different designs as well as spend time with 3D modeling, controls and fund-raising.

Andy and Mark have started something good. I think this will help raise the bar in FIRST quickly for veteran and rookie teams alike.

[Salik Syed]

ookay..... don't call me a flip flopper....
dlavery comments kinda pretty much changed my mind
I am now an offficial supporter of the AM transmission....

i was skeptical at first because i thought it could affect students creativity overall in FIRST but now i'm convinced overall it could do some good...

[Pat Roche]

Originally Posted by DougHogg

"Teams inventing new products for other teams"––now that sounds like a worthwhile evolution to me.

I picture a time when there will be 5 or 6 gear box designs available and teams deciding which one (if any) to use, and then working on their own design for sale.

In fact, lately I have been thinking that our team should market something to do with robotics as a means of helping to fund our team. I was inspired by a group connected with Team 968 RAWC who created a robot for the police department. Also I believe that Team 696, the Circuit Breakers, made a robot for a group in India. (Edit: I forgot to mention the twin girls from Alaska who, according to Wired News, invented a robot to help rescue people who had fallen through the ice. They won a $50,000 prize in the Westinghouse Science Competition and are working on marketing their invention.)

Team 134 is doing something similar to the group from Alaska in making a remote controled robot made from previous years parts for ice rescued. Its a ongoing project that has been in progress for the past few years and is finally going into fabrication and such as we speak.

-Pat

[Rich Wong]

Christmas came earlier for one of my teams!
Today they received their AndyMark order in the mail and called me over.

It was like a mini-kickoff, we had box opening ceremony, we clapped, we danced and we rejoice! (ok, ok we got carry away….)

It felt like Christmas!
The students were very happy. They got to see and touch good quality gear that was not homemaded with hand tools. Machining that was professionally done, holes that are straight, workmanship that the school could NOT produce in a million years.

Project ideas were flowing…. It was just like a FRC Kickoff. Their first project…. A school demo robot they can be proud of.
(sorry Andy.... no hot dog wagon this year)

This is how students can be inspired!

[Andy Baker]

We've recently posted entire CAD files of the AM Shifter, at this location.

Our main intent is for a designer to easily incorporate this assembly into their robot design. However, teams can also create their own gearbox from this CAD geometry or create a derivative of this design by improving upon it.

Also, CAD files for the AM Planetary are at this location.

Enjoy,
Andy Baker

[ajlapp]

thanks for getting these files posted......they should be a great help for anyone who wishes to buy or adapt the designs!

is it possible to make the shifter file itemized like the planetary.

when i open the planetary file i have control over each individual component. the shifter file is just one large assembly.

if it can be done that would be awesome. otherwise no big deal.