YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

[Rich Kressly]

Prototype your brains out now, but if it's going to be shipped as a part of your 2005 robot, you'll have to make a new one after kickoff.

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by gwross

<slight sarcasm>
Hey Kris,

I like the slippery slope argument, so I use it a lot. But don't you think it's a little hypocritical to first say you hate it, and then proceed to use it? If you are philosophically opposed to the use of this argumentum, then keep yourself away from that slope, and use some of those God-given brain cells to fashion an argument that doesn't conflict with your chosen philosophy.
</slight sarcasm>

Not at all - to avoid the use of the slippery slope, one has to allow the things that I mentioned (previously non-standard methods of building), but draw the line and vigorously defend it when it is merited.

I have never had a problem with the new methods that wasn't a problem with the method itself. Of those things I mentioned, I've only actually spoken out against bringing spare or practice robots to competitions, because I didn't feel that it was possible for a team to have a robot to practice with for many weeks without modifying it, and therefore running afoul of the spirit and letter of the law. If I were a slippery slope subscriber, I could have argued against every single one of those changes on the grounds that it would have led to where we are now - where people think that it's ok to build robot parts before and after the 6 week build season. But those changes themselves weren't problematic - this one is. So, I think we should allow the others, and protest against those who would make this change.

[sanddrag]

I think the main thing you are all missing here is the basic question: What is raw material?

For an example, is a 6.2" x 3.8" piece of 1/4" thick aluminum plate raw material just as is a 4'x8' sheet of it.

Or maybe if you buy that small precisely cut piece from the metal store it is raw material but if you cut it youself from the large sheet then it is fabricated? That wouldn't make sense.

Metal stores sell cut to order sizes very commonly and readily and thus I would classify cut them as "off the shelf" It is just like when you order a Cheeseburger no pickels, it is made just for you but it everybody gets it their own way.

But, say you took a side of beef and made your own cheeseburger, or in this case the plate of metal and made your own little rectangle. Would that be fabrication. I would think no since it would be exactly the same process as what they are doing at the store.

But howabout making an aluminum sprocket? Is that fabrication? What if you can buy the exact same sprocket? If it was exactly the same (by exactly I mean if it was used on the Mars Rover and you replaced it with your own it would work the same) then I would say that it acceptable. But who would fabricate something the exact same as they could easily buy? Perhaps only to save money, so now the issue is how is it counted in the budget? Now say they are making a #25 43 tooth aluminum sprocket, but all that is for sale is the same model in steel. I believe that would be fabrication.

I see fabrication (loosely classified) as bending, cutting on an angle, drilling, milling, facing, turning, and hardening.

I would see raw materials as being cut on 90 degree angles only and through the entire thickness of the material (so you don't take a 3x3" block and cut a 1.5" by 1.5" little block out of it to make a step), in the orientation that the material is normally cut (for example if you had a way to cut 1/4" plate in half to make 1/8" plate, that is not normal and it would be fabrication), to within reasonable industry tolerance,s regardless of whether it is done by a metal supplier or by a team.

Let me make the above sentence a little simpler. If you can buy it cut a certain size from the metal store, then you should be allowed to cut it to that same certain size yourself and it would still be considered a raw material.

In any case though, I don't know why there has been so much worry on these boards about people cheating or pre-season fabricating lately. Do you just think it's unfair because if they can do it without getting caught you want to also? Or is it unfair because your behing left behind by follwing the rules.Each team interprets the rules in their own way and they will decide amongst themselves how closely they will or will not follow the universal interpretation and/or spirit of the rules.

Following the rules or not, anyone who fabricates before the build is taking a huge risk. A risk that certain elements of the game and the rules will not change. But on January 8th, everything could change in an instant. Yes there have been trends and similarities in the past years (and that is why we do offseason designing and prototyping) but nothing is gauranteed to be the same. There is no rule that the field must remain square. They might say no wheels allowed. They might say no motors alowed for drive systems. They might say everyone must use the gearbox provided in the kit. There might not even be a gearbox in the kit.

So everyone who does pre-season work, regardless of whether it is legal by your interpretation of the rules, is taking a risk that all their work will be thrown out the window on January 8th.

It is impossible to design a robot (or even major compnents of the robot) that will play the game well and how you want to play it, before you the game is ever released.

Please keep in mind that these are my own ideas and you will probably find lots of flaws in my reasoning but I threw it out there to start the discussion anyhow. Also, being my own ideas, what is expressed in the above is in no way intentionally reflective of the actual game rules from past or future competitions.

[Tuba4]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Each team interprets the rules in their own way and they will decide amongst themselves how closely they will or will not follow the universal interpretation and/or spirit of the rules....

So everyone who does pre-season work, regardless of whether it is legal by your interpretation of the rules, is taking a risk that all their work will be thrown out the window on January 8th.

From the 2004 Rules(which may of course change in 2005) -

"5.2.5 Design and Build Rules
<R09> Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the start of the Kick-off."

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary -

"Fabricate - CONSTRUCT, MANUFACTURE; specifically : to construct from diverse and usually standardized parts"

What's to interpret? The answer should be pretty clear. "Teams MUST fabricate and/or assemble...AFTER the start of the kickoff". No interpretation necessary. Unless we are to be like Bill Clinton and debate what the definition of the word is is.

Besides, my interpretation or your interpretation of the rules doesn't matter. The only interpretation that matters is that which comes from FIRST. And that is clear to me anyway.

Even fabrication of spare parts after the build period was made crystal clear last year. The official FIRST response to a question posed in the Q & A said you put your tools down when the robot is shipped and pick them up again at your first competition. Not much to debate their either.

[Hieb]

From my own interpretation of the rules I think the arguments against cutting before the season are all very valid.

My own $.02 - What is your purpose for cutting the pieces before the season starts? If it is a matter of saving space in your storage area or for use on a prototype, more power to you. If, as it seems from the original question, it is to gain an advantage over other teams by removing some of your fabrication work from the build season, that sounds like a violation of the rules and the spirit of FIRST.

Right now I have students brainstorming possible drivetrain configurations, possible body designs, and many other things. Some have gone as far as to draw up a possible cut list for materials. That, however, is where it ends. After the kickoff, our strategy team will look over the brainstormed ideas, choose what appears to work best for this year's game, and begin fabrication. AFTER the kickoff!

Like Dean said at last year's kickoff, don't make rule interpretation a thing for the lawyers. Think about the spirit of the competition. In the end we will probably never know if you decided to cut before the kickoff or not. That's a decision that will have to be made by your team. Hopefully it is a good decision.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Hieb

My own $.02 - What is your purpose for cutting the pieces before the season starts? If it is a matter of saving space in your storage area or for use on a prototype, more power to you. If, as it seems from the original question, it is to gain an advantage over other teams by removing some of your fabrication work from the build season, that sounds like a violation of the rules and the spirit of FIRST.

This is a good point. So maybe fabrication is "cutting material with intent to use for a specific purpose on a robot" and such an action would render that piece of material "fabricated" and it would no longer be raw. But size reduction for storage purposes would keep the material defined as raw. I'm liking this concept.

[Natchez]

Oh, this is going to be a good YMTC year! Remember, you are an official and are to interpret the rules.

For example, Tuba4 referenced rule 5.2.5 Design and Build Rules <R09>

Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the start of the Kick-off.

This rule does not apply, in my opinion, because the parts in question are not custom.

Please allow me to give a scenario that may make cutting metal in December seem palatable.

Team 4444 has some money in the off-season and purchases $2,000 worth of AM Transmissions in November and then implements them on their 2005 robot and practice 'bot. Team 8888 barely had enough to pay the entry fee but has the wherewithal to visit every machine shop in the community with AM Transmissions CAD Drawings in-hand asking them to PLEASE make these parts. Team 8888 is successful and finds two machine shops that make two transmissions each.

Each team is starting out on the same footing come January 8th with two transmissions in-hand but it seems that folks think that team 4444 can use them on their 2005 robot whereas team 8888 can not.

So, by the rules, I don't see why 8888 can not use the transmissions. Moreover, if 8888 built the transmissions themselves, I contend that it would be more of a learning experience for the students than if they bought them from AM.

Finally, I thought that it would be a good idea to contact local machine shops and see if they would manufacture a bunch of AM Transmissions and we would just give them to the Greater Houston Teams (about 15). We would parse the work out to several shops and each team in Houston could be shifting by January 10th. We would also set up tours of the machine shops for the students to see exactly how the trannies were built. Since machine shops in Houston traditionally have a slow period in December, this would be a perfect opportunity to introduce the shops to FIRST and get them involved. Of course, you know the long term plan: get them to support a team. A special thanks to AM for releasing the drawings or this idea could never get off the ground. Regardless whether the teams can use them on their '05 robot, I am going to initiate the effort hopefully to help some teams out.

[Matt Attallah]

I say yes.

Just price it as the exact same amount as the one off the shelf.

Done-n-done.

[Bill Gold]

All rules that I've seen quoted in this thread have applied to PAST years' games, and are technically not the 2005 FRC Rules. We will not officially know whether or not components fabricated before the afternoon of Jan 8, 2005 until the new rules are released. I have no reason to believe that they will change, I'm just saying this in the spirit of not "knowing" the rules for each coming season.

-Bill

[Jaine Perotti]

Before debating in this kind of argument, we need to know what we consider to be 'pre-fabricated' and 'non-prefabricated'. If we cannot effectively describe what exactly it is we are for or against, then we will continue to misunderstand each other.

A component will be defined as something that has a specific function or use on a robot, and has multiple parts which make it function. Ex: a robot's chassis or a robot's arm.

A part of a component will be defined as something that has a specific purpose within a component -- something that has been intentionally altered in such a way as to serve it's purpose in making the entire component function as a whole. A part does not have a function standing alone; it must be part of an assembly to have a purpose.

A raw material has no specific function for the robot yet. Examples of raw materials are: aluminum, steel, plywood, lexan...etc.

.................

Something that has not been fabricated before kickoff:

1) Is not a component that is intended to/will be used on the 2005 robot.

2) Is not part of a component that is intended to/will be used on the 2005 robot.

3) If it is a component or a part, then it is commercially available. Ex: motors

4) Is a raw material. For example, a piece of aluminum may or may not be available commercially in a specific size, but since it has no specific function for the robot yet, it is still not a prefabricated part.

..................

Something that has been fabricated before kickoff:

1) Is a component that is intended to/will be used on the 2005 robot. Ex: an arm or chassis.

2) Is a part of a component that is intended to/will be used on the 2005 robot.

3) Is not commercially available and must be fabricated by hand for a specific use on the 2005 robot.

..................

So, according to the definitions above, I do not think it is ok for teams to be fabricating their own parts/components before kickoff. It is unacceptable and unfair to other teams. It is against the rules.

I am sure that I have not thought of everything, but I think the difference between prefab and non-prefab should be pretty clear. Teams should have six weeks to build their robot...no more and no less.

-- Jaine

[Billfred]

I say we stick to the spirit of the rules. If you've got to cut some aluminum to get it into your storage closet, cut away. If you're going to cut some aluminum to start on your robot, smack yourself upside the head and sit on your hands until Kickoff.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Finally, I thought that it would be a good idea to contact local machine shops and see if they would manufacture a bunch of AM Transmissions and we would just give them to the Greater Houston Teams (about 15). We would parse the work out to several shops and each team in Houston could be shifting by January 10th. We would also set up tours of the machine shops for the students to see exactly how the trannies were built. Since machine shops in Houston traditionally have a slow period in December, this would be a perfect opportunity to introduce the shops to FIRST and get them involved. Of course, you know the long term plan: get them to support a team. A special thanks to AM for releasing the drawings or this idea could never get off the ground. Regardless whether the teams can use them on their '05 robot, I am going to initiate the effort hopefully to help some teams out.

This is a good idea, but I suggest a twist to keep things "legal" with regard to FIRST's most current rules (2004). Get prints to the machine shops and have them prepare their mills and lathes. They can even make some practice parts to be sure that they are correct. Then, on Jan. 8th, have them start cutting metal for the competition parts. Heck, the CNC code could already be in the machines (teams already do this). Within 3-4 days, parts should be complete. This effort would take the same preparation, save some purchased parts cost (compared to buying them), give the students the same experience, and you would be sure this was legal. You could even make 1-2 "non-competing units" before the ship date to make sure things work out. This is what we have done during the past few years.

Andy B.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by BurningQuestion

Before debating in this kind of argument, we need to know what we consider to be 'pre-fabricated' and 'non-prefabricated'. If we cannot effectively describe what exactly it is we are for or against, then we will continue to misunderstand each other.

snipsnipsnip
Define terms.

-- Jaine

I agree both with Jaine and how she went about it. I realize this is just a 'me too' post, but for the purposes of this thread I believe it is appropriate.


Wetzel

[Ryan Foley]

I think this is what FIRST is trying to get rid of. Remember last kickoff they said they are trying to make rules clear so we can stop being lawyers and just build the bots? I believe one of the spotlights here reads "stop being lawyers and start being engineers!"

So lets look at it simply:
1) Did you buy it? No? then that means you made it outside build season, against the (last year) rules, so be ready to make another one when Jan 8th hits. If yes, go to 2
2) Is it still the same as when you bought it? No? then the only way you arent breaking the rules (from last year) is if it's been cut for storage otherwise you'll have to make a different one for your official robot. If yes then you are within regulations

So relating to that post I saw where a team takes the AM shifter plans to machine shops to have them built: they bought them, not made them; meaning they are legal in my mind. Any other team could do the exact same thing. On the other hand, not every team can make their own transmission, but they have the ability to buy them, placing them in the "off the shelf" category (whether or not every team can afford them is another matter, but not actually relevant as the team still has the ability to buy one)

Thats my opinion.

[Tuba4]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Teams must fabricate and/or assemble all custom parts and assembled mechanisms on the robot by the 2004 team after the start of the Kick-off.

This rule does not apply, in my opinion, because the parts in question are not custom.

Please allow me to give a scenario that may make cutting metal in December seem palatable.

Team 4444 has some money in the off-season and purchases $2,000 worth of AM Transmissions in November and then implements them on their 2005 robot and practice 'bot. Team 8888 barely had enough to pay the entry fee but has the wherewithal to visit every machine shop in the community with AM Transmissions CAD Drawings in-hand asking them to PLEASE make these parts. Team 8888 is successful and finds two machine shops that make two transmissions each.

Each team is starting out on the same footing come January 8th with two transmissions in-hand but it seems that folks think that team 4444 can use them on their 2005 robot whereas team 8888 can not.

So, by the rules, I don't see why 8888 can not use the transmissions. Moreover, if 8888 built the transmissions themselves, I contend that it would be more of a learning experience for the students than if they bought them from AM.

Finally, I thought that it would be a good idea to contact local machine shops and see if they would manufacture a bunch of AM Transmissions and we would just give them to the Greater Houston Teams (about 15). We would parse the work out to several shops and each team in Houston could be shifting by January 10th. We would also set up tours of the machine shops for the students to see exactly how the trannies were built. Since machine shops in Houston traditionally have a slow period in December, this would be a perfect opportunity to introduce the shops to FIRST and get them involved. Of course, you know the long term plan: get them to support a team. A special thanks to AM for releasing the drawings or this idea could never get off the ground. Regardless whether the teams can use them on their '05 robot, I am going to initiate the effort hopefully to help some teams out.

Where do we start here?!

First, assuming the rule is the same in 2005, it does apply because the parts ARE custom parts. Your fictional team 8888 was walking drawings around and having parts fabricated by someone other than the original manufacturer. It would be a one off or small quantity job, not something the machine shop would typically make. That indeed makes them custom.

Second, we should not be in the business of making something that runs contrary to the rules "palatable". If an action is, as it appears here, not allowed, then in the spirit of gracious professionalism, we should not be doing it. Note that I said should not be doing it. There is no way to adequately and equally police each and every thing in the rules.

Third, the scenario you put forth would be correct. Under the 2004 rules, team 4444 could purchase transmissions before kickoff and use them while team 8888 could not use transmissions they fabricated or had someone fabricate before kickoff. Is it fair? Maybe or maybe not. But it is what the rules seem to dictate.

And finally, I would contact FIRST, before you go and have 15 or 20 or whatever amount of transmissions fabricated before kickoff, for an official ruling. It would not be a good thing to publicly announce you are going to do something, do it and then find out it would not be allowed by the rules.

We are in the business of teaching our students. One of those things should be respect for the rules, whether we agree with them or not. And whether they be the rules of FIRST or the rules of law and life. Would you suggest to your students that they drive 65mph in a school zone? I hope not. Would you advocate that your under age students drink alcohol when not permitted by the laws of your state? I think not!! Then let's have the same respect for the rules of FIRST!!