YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

[JVN]

Originally Posted by Natchez

John, I appreciate your use of the excessive to make your point and flippant attempt to cease a discussion with which you do not agree. I'm sorry that I am not willing to lower myself to your level but I will try to answer your concern.

Remember kids, whenever you see a post like this just ask yourself -- WWABD? (What would Andy Baker Do?) It was that question which caused me to delete every response up to this point.
(Let's try one more time...)

I guess at this time, my only question is this:
How come whenever there is a discussion about "leveling the playingfield" it involves tying the someone's hands behind their back?

The solution is not to decrease the level of veteran play -- This doesn't seem like what FIRST is about. I believe the solution is to INCREASE the level of rookie play. If the gap between veterans and rookies seems too large, perhaps we need to "raise the rookies". Instead of asking ourselves how to limit the veterans -- ask yourself "How can we help the rookies kick butt...?"

Lucien,
You seem to believe that robot practice during the 6-weeks is somehow the magical factor needing adjustment. So, ask yourself how we can give rookie teams more practice (for the big game).

Why can't rookie teams take the drivebase included in the KOP and practice with that? We (229) haven't used it in the past, but I know many teams have used it to great effect. Isn't it supposed to be up and running in a few hours? (I'm almost positive I saw some video of Blair in 2003 and Vince in 2004 building one in an hour...) What is stopping rookies from practicing with that?

If this drivebase is inadequate (is it?), maybe FIRST should consider a newer, more competitive version. Certainly this seems like a better solution than rules which disallow veterans from using their resources.

Hopefully I will be able to someday rise to Lucien's "higher level" -- Until Then,
JVN

[Ricky Q.]

Originally Posted by JVN

The solution is not to decrease the level of veteran play -- This doesn't seem like what FIRST is about. I believe the solution is to INCREASE the level of rookie play. If the gap between veterans and rookies seems too large, perhaps we need to "raise the rookies". Instead of asking ourselves how to limit the veterans -- ask yourself "How can we help the rookies kick butt...?"

Exactly, eventually limiting the veterans will limit the rookie teams. Rookie teams are supposed to learn from the veterans, and if we cannot improve our practices by learning from past years we cannot help the rookies learn. Every year teams post white papers, mentor teams, assist at competitions and do other things to help the rookies. This NEEDS to increase year after year. Veterans need to mentor more teams, rookies need to seek help from as many veterans as needed. Sure taking away abilites from the veterans and making everyone start over year after year may level the playing field a bit but it also takes away from what FIRST is about. Inspiration, learning, team work and so much more.

Originally Posted by JVN

Lucien,
You seem to believe that robot practice during the 6-weeks is somehow the magical factor needing adjustment. So, ask yourself how we can give rookie teams more practice (for the big game).

Why can't rookie teams take the drivebase included in the KOP and practice with that? We (229) haven't used it in the past, but I know many teams have used it to great effect. Isn't it supposed to be up and running in a few hours? (I'm almost positive I saw some video of Blair in 2003 and Vince in 2004 building one in an hour...) What is stopping rookies from practicing with that?

If this drivebase is inadequate (is it?), maybe FIRST should consider a newer, more competitive version. Certainly this seems like a better solution than rules which disallow veterans from using their resources.

Hopefully I will be able to someday rise to Lucien's "higher level" -- Until Then,
JVN

Just because veterans have old robots to practice on doesn't mean it can help them that much. Drive systems can change dramatically year after year, and even if they dont you can't truly simulate a real competition. Drivers truly learn whats expected of them in practice rounds and during the competiton. This can also be resolved with veterans letting rookie teams in their area borrow old robots if they wish. The drive base from FIRST could also help a bit.

[Derek Bessette]

Originally Posted by JVN

The solution is not to decrease the level of veteran play -- This doesn't seem like what FIRST is about. I believe the solution is to INCREASE the level of rookie play. If the gap between veterans and rookies seems too large, perhaps we need to "raise the rookies". Instead of asking ourselves how to limit the veterans -- ask yourself "How can we help the rookies kick butt...?"

I have to agree with John on this one. I was with team 1114 Simbotics last season. We are a very well funded team with a strong mentor base. This season we decided to start up two more teams in the area with the help of our sponsor (GM). We call ourselves NIAGARAFirst.org and have a website by the same name.

We have spent a lot of time this year doing prototyping for the 2005 season. We have involved all the schools as best we could in this project and will give them all the designs and resources they need to re-create it in 2005 rules permitting (we will post a white paper once we know they work and can find some free time). We may even split up some of the building between schools.

We will likely build a practice robot again this year. But it will be available to all the teams in our area for practicing. If all goes well, Newman Brother, a local construction company will build us another playing field this year which will be shared by all three teams.

The expected results:
A strong veteran team
Two strong rookie teams that should kick butt....maybe even 1114's butt
A money savings by sharing transportation and resources
More teams with only a few more mentors
3 times as many kids inspired
More buzz in our area over the FIRST experience...which will hopefully lead to more teams!!

I understand that this isn't possible everywhere but I do think raising the rookies is the better way to go.

That being said...rules are rules. We are very careful not to use and prototype parts on our competition robot and no parts built outside the 6 week period should be used.

This is my opinion...