can there be agressive play?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Lisa Perez

In addition to this, usually FIRST referees will make a signal which shows that you have been pushing too long.. If they also think you're coming from high speeds at another end of the field to hit the opposing robot, they will also either warn you and/or disqualify you.

In the case that you go at a high speed from one end to another and slow down EXTREMELY before you play defense by pushing the robot, well that's completely legal.

As long as you keep your eyes on the field and on what the referee may be signaling, and not intentionally try to ruin another robot, you're good to go!

That's not always the case.
Observe.

[Kyle Love]

When you building your robot I think you should make it to take some hits. Now, I don't agree with flagrant, needless ramming, but there should be some pushing and shoving. It makes the matches more fun to watch! There does need to be a defined line where to stop "friendly contact" and "needless contact".

-Kyle

[Alex Golec]

Originally Posted by Kyle45

There does need to be a defined line where to stop "friendly contact" and "needless contact".

This is one of, if not the hardest line for FIRST to define. Even so, it is also difficult to have enforced in the exact same manner every match because of the different referees at each regional. For example, in my team's past year, (which consider a bit of a controvesial one) we had different decisions made against us. Here is a example of the blurry line. [just as a note to readers- please do not start discussion on this case... the topic has been beaten to a pulp already.] No call was made against us or our opponents. However at IRI, our drivers were attempting to prevent a robot from hanging, and accidentally closed the arm grippers on our opponent and then released them- while it was accidental, it could also have been viewed as dangerous and threatening to our opponents. In that match, we were disqualified. The referees view it as too aggressive for fair play.
In the end, you just have to keep a respect for your opponents and their robots- they worked hard to construct them as well.

_Alex

[dubious elise]

i feel that, within reason, yes, agressive play should be allowed. i define reason on a similar plane as FIRST, blocking/pushing/and otherwise forcing your opponent should only be allowed for a few seconds at a time before penalties should be enforced. For obvious reasons, full speed ramming (like what happened in Koko Ed's video) is dangerous, not gracious or professional in any way, and should not be allowed.

But whether you run your robot into a concrete pillar in st. louis while programming *on accident!*, or anticipate getting hit around a bit by the competition, a steel frame is always a safe choice

...by the way, we did more damage to that pillar (a few small chunks flew off ) than we did to our robot (nothing)

[jonathan lall]

Yes, certainly there can, but you just have to make sure you don't cross the line between strategic and malicious. Blocking is fine. Pinning is fine (though there are rules that both teams and refs have to follow about this, so know them well), slowing down an opponent or getting them stuck on something is fine. Pushing is fine as long as it isn't into something out of bounds. If a robot happens to not be robust and ceases to function under this contact, too bad for the robot. Remember that if two robots hit each other, they both take the same amount of punishment; the modifier is how much of this either robot can take.

Bottom line though: your answer will be in the rules next year, and not in the opinion of a ChiefDelphi poster. What one poster might think is legal, another might (perhaps wrongly) think is malicious. Imagine that poster built the robot you just wrecked. Or worse still, imagine that poster was a referee...

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

That's not always the case.
Observe.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

Koko Ed

At what time remaining in the match was the event we are supposed to be looking at?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Koko Ed

At what time remaining in the match was the event we are supposed to be looking at?

At 1:29 left in the match 662 raced across the platform and threw us off the platform to the floor.

[artic_raven]

the rules always say that this isnt a game where you try to destroy your opponate, which is true. but no matter what the challenge is there will be ramming, pinning and blocking.

[Wetzel]

You can be aggressive, but not destructive. That is how it has been in the past, and likely will be in the future.

As always, read the new rules.

Wetzel

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

Bottom line though: your answer will be in the rules next year, and not in the opinion of a ChiefDelphi poster. What one poster might think is legal, another might (perhaps wrongly) think is malicious. Imagine that poster built the robot you just wrecked. Or worse still, imagine that poster was a referee...



I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

No, I was just saying that there are times there are agressive play in FIRST. We had a built in weakness in our robot (too top heavy) and it got tipped over easily and other teams at the championship took advatage of it and slammed us often. It was fair. If you don't like getting tipped don't build a robot that tips.

[gburlison]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

No, I was just saying that there are times there are agressive play in FIRST. We had a built in weakness in our robot (too top heavy) and it got tipped over easily and other teams at the championship took advatage of it and slammed us often. It was fair. If you don't like getting tipped don't build a robot that tips.

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

At 1:29 left in the match 662 raced across the platform and threw us off the platform to the floor.

As the coach for 662 I must say that it was never our intention to tip over your robot. Since our robot was basically a one trick pony ( we could hang and thats about it ), our strategy was to hang and stop other robots from hanging. So we were just trying to stop you from gaining access to the platform. As you said your robot tipped over easily and our driver was a little to aggressive.

To add something new to the discussion, during regional competition at the Colorado Regional, in one match we had an opponent slam into wall in front of our driver hard enough to move the wall. You could feel the carpet move beneath you feet. This happened during autonomous mode and since our robot had 15 inch wheels, our opponent just sort of ran under one side of our robot and upset our autonomous mode. I assume that if it had been a direct hit, our robot would been severely damaged.

[JamesCH95]

I would say that blocking, tipping, hitting, and expoliting design flaws are legal (as long as it isn't too malicious or does intention damage) but pinning or "hanging up" a robot is not cool. Pinning is illegitimate and should be banned. If your only effective strategdy is to pin a 'bot against a wall, well, you have some huge flaws in your game/bot.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I would say that blocking, tipping, hitting, and expoliting design flaws are legal (as long as it isn't too malicious or does intention damage) but pinning or "hanging up" a robot is not cool. Pinning is illegitimate and should be banned. If your only effective strategdy is to pin a 'bot against a wall, well, you have some huge flaws in your game/bot.

I remember in 2002 at Buckeye this one team used the mobile goal to pin another robot against the side of the filed. Teh ref gave them the 10 count and they let go. The goal was still pinning the robot on the side and they went about their business.

[JudyVandy]

If I remember the usual rules correctly, a certain amount of what may be termed 'aggressive play' is permitted, as long as the intent is to prevent the other robot from scoring or to enable your robot to score points. This does include pinning, but only for a limited number of seconds. Pushing an opposing robot to keep it from scoring points is, likewise permitted. Wanton destruction of another robot is not permitted, which includes beating up on a robot when it's down. Pushing a downed robot out of your way so you could score points is something that could be subject to a referee's judgment.

[aaronbr28040]

The debate now is not really whether or not aggressive play is allowed but rather how much will be tolerated. It really isn't that important due to the fact that as long as you aren't deliberately breaking the rules or hurting another robot your team will not get any penalties. The refs do not throw penalties just to do it, they try not to but sometimes they are forced to by extremely aggressive play. Just go out there and play hard and always keep gracious professionalism in mind and you will be fine.

-Aaron