Go to Post Unfortunately, you cannot always tell when some things are jokes on forums, because we only can rely on text and a limited number of smilies. - artdutra04 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2004, 20:48
Joe Ross's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Ross Joe Ross is offline
Registered User
FRC #0330 (Beachbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 8,602
Joe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Ross has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Max, you must hate Beatty, then. Each of their 4 national championship robots have used PVC in an integral way, along with their custom machined metal parts.
Reply With Quote
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2004, 21:19
Max Lobovsky's Avatar
Max Lobovsky Max Lobovsky is offline
Fold em oval!
FRC #1257 (Parallel Universe)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Posts: 1,026
Max Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Max Lobovsky
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Though I have not had the pleasure of seeing one of 71's robots, from the pictures I have seen, I have great respect for their designs. They exhibit the kind of engineering efficiency few other teams have.

I am not entirely opposed to using any particular material, I'm just pointing out commonly misused materials.

Of course, as I have stated in several threads, material choice is more than simply the best performance for your weight or even for your money but the best performance for your money, weight, and time. You may find a piece of PVC that happens to have a very efficient shape and creating a shape out of a better material with the better efficiency would take too much time or money. I'm only concerned with what I would consider blatant errors like an entire robot out of Lexan.
__________________
Learn, edit, inspire: The FIRSTwiki.
Team 1257


2005 NYC Regional - 2nd seed, Xerox Creativity Award, Autodesk Visualization Award
2005 Chesapeake Regional - Engineering Inspiration Award
2004 Chesapeake Regional - Rookie Inspiration award
2004 NJ Regional - Team Spirit Award
Reply With Quote
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-12-2004, 22:28
MattB703 MattB703 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Matt
None #0703 (Team Pheonix)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Saginaw, MI
Posts: 233
MattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud ofMattB703 has much to be proud of
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

We made an all Lean chassis on Team 49 back in 2001.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/pi...&quiet=Verbose

We had some problems with a lack of rigidity.

Matt B
Reply With Quote
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 02:51
George1902's Avatar
George1902 George1902 is offline
It's a SPAM thing...
AKA: George1083; George180
FRC #0180 (SPAM)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Stuart, FL
Posts: 785
George1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky
I'm only concerned with what I would consider blatant errors like an entire robot out of Lexan.
Max, please be more careful with your choice of words. It's not the materials that you use, but how you use them that matters. As others have mentioned, you need to be aware of your specific needs and of the strengths and weaknesses of any material you might use. Once all of these considerations have been made, then you can choose the best material for your situation.

To say categorically that making a robot from lexan is a blatant error makes you sound narrow-minded at best and ignorant at worst. SPAM's 1999 and 2000 robots were nearly entirely made from lexan and no one who saw them or played against them would doubt their ability or robustness. Also, SPAM used lexan for vital structural pieces on their 2001, 2002, and 2003 robots with complete success.

I'm sure, as with any other material, there are many teams who have use it successfully and many who have not. I'd say it's similar to how some people refuse to use wood on their robots, yet teams like 173 and 61 use it masterfully. Know your material, know your purpose, and you won't go wrong.
__________________
George

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 08:07
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
Registered User
FRC #1640
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: West Chester, Pa.
Posts: 1,371
Gdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Since this thread has turned to a choice of materials discussion, I would like to point out that in the past 3 years I have noticed a increase in rough play in the game. In 2004 we took several high impact hits. We fortunately survived them with no damage. I would suggest that all teams look at the materials and design with the goal of surviving high speed point impacts. More and more teams are using multiple motor trans and the power and speed is increasing. Plan for it or you'll find you self in the pits making emergency repairs. What worked in the past may not work as well for 2005.
First has opened up the allowed materials. Evaluate the choices and use them.
Reply With Quote
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 08:39
Max Lobovsky's Avatar
Max Lobovsky Max Lobovsky is offline
Fold em oval!
FRC #1257 (Parallel Universe)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Posts: 1,026
Max Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Max Lobovsky
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Seems like people on CD are just out looking for something to be offended by. If there is anyone here who can't find significant design errors on every single robot in FIRST, they obviously don't know much about engineering or building robots.

Additionally, I didn't say categorically that the use of a material is bad, just that certain materials are commonly used incorrectly.
__________________
Learn, edit, inspire: The FIRSTwiki.
Team 1257


2005 NYC Regional - 2nd seed, Xerox Creativity Award, Autodesk Visualization Award
2005 Chesapeake Regional - Engineering Inspiration Award
2004 Chesapeake Regional - Rookie Inspiration award
2004 NJ Regional - Team Spirit Award
Reply With Quote
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 08:48
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,825
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky
Seems like people on CD are just out looking for something to be offended by. If there is anyone here who can't find significant design errors on every single robot in FIRST, they obviously don't know much about engineering or building robots.

Additionally, I didn't say categorically that the use of a material is bad, just that certain materials are commonly used incorrectly.
Care to point out a design error in Team 60 and 71's robots in 2002?

And those were just the two that first jumped to mind.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 08:58
Max Lobovsky's Avatar
Max Lobovsky Max Lobovsky is offline
Fold em oval!
FRC #1257 (Parallel Universe)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Scotch Plains, NJ
Posts: 1,026
Max Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant futureMax Lobovsky has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to Max Lobovsky
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

You know the argument is getting a bit ridiculous when people start using very obscure questions as points...

Nevertheless, if you insist, I will try. I have never seen either of those robots. If you can provide me with a couple of good quality pictures, I might be able to give you an answer.
__________________
Learn, edit, inspire: The FIRSTwiki.
Team 1257


2005 NYC Regional - 2nd seed, Xerox Creativity Award, Autodesk Visualization Award
2005 Chesapeake Regional - Engineering Inspiration Award
2004 Chesapeake Regional - Rookie Inspiration award
2004 NJ Regional - Team Spirit Award
Reply With Quote
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 09:46
Bharat Nain's Avatar
Bharat Nain Bharat Nain is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 2,000
Bharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond reputeBharat Nain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Bharat Nain Send a message via MSN to Bharat Nain
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky
You know the argument is getting a bit ridiculous when people start using very obscure questions as points...

Nevertheless, if you insist, I will try. I have never seen either of those robots. If you can provide me with a couple of good quality pictures, I might be able to give you an answer.
I found a couple pictures, don't know if its what you are looking for.
Team 60 - http://www.firstrobotics.net/02galle.../060-1_jpg.htm
Team 71 - http://www.firstrobotics.net/02galle.../071-1_jpg.htm

Try searching soap108.com for videos, I think they have some.

I tend to agree that there will be a few flaws here and there in all bots, but I don't think FIRST meant us to build a perfect bot. Every bot is built to do a certain thing and accomplish a certain aspect of a game.
__________________
-= Bharat Nain =-

Whatever you do, you need courage. Whatever course you decide upon, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong. There are always difficulties arising that tempt you to believe your critics are right. To map out a course of action and follow it to an end requires some of the same courage that a soldier needs. Peace has its victories, but it takes brave men and women to win them. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply With Quote
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 10:08
Andy Baker's Avatar Woodie Flowers Award
Andy Baker Andy Baker is offline
President, AndyMark, Inc.
FRC #3940 (CyberTooth)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 3,425
Andy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond reputeAndy Baker has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Andy Baker
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Another good example of using plastic as a constructive material is 1999 TKO robot from 45.

Polycarbonate, in this case, was an excellent material choice. It was better than steel or aluminum. Anyone want to guess why?

Andy B.
Reply With Quote
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-12-2004, 13:05
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,825
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker
Another good example of using plastic as a constructive material is 1999 TKO robot from 45.

Polycarbonate, in this case, was an excellent material choice. It was better than steel or aluminum. Anyone want to guess why?

Andy B.

Because it's not too good an idea to have all the weight steel or aluminum would bring, 8 feet up in the air?

And Max, I didn't think it was an obscure question at all. Those two robots are widely acclaimed as among the best ever built by FIRST teams, and all who saw them in action would probably agree that they dont have any significant design flaws.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-12-2004, 00:58
Travis Covington's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Travis Covington Travis Covington is offline
Engineering Mentor
FRC #0254
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 574
Travis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Travis Covington
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker
Polycarbonate, in this case, was an excellent material choice. It was better than steel or aluminum. Anyone want to guess why?

Andy B.
It is clear and wouldn't block the drivers view?

In 99, when the playing field was only 24' x 24' I don't know how much more you would be able to see, but that's my guess as I am sure an arm made of aluminum or steel could be equally strong for the same weight.

The only other benefit I can think of is thermal and electrical conductivity (or lack thereof.)
__________________
-Travis Covington

2008-2017 - Engineering Mentor of Team 254
2001-2008 - Engineering Mentor of Team 968
1998-2001 - Mechanical Director/Driver/Member of Team 115

Last edited by Travis Covington : 14-12-2004 at 01:20.
Reply With Quote
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-12-2004, 01:12
Unsung FIRST Hero
JVN JVN is offline
@JohnVNeun
AKA: John Vielkind-Neun
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Greenville, Tx
Posts: 3,159
JVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond reputeJVN has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Covington
The only other benefit I can think of is thermal and electrical conductivity (or lack thereof.
Well if I remember correctly--
The tkats used that mean arm as a "stiffarm" to prevent teams from getting onto the puck. Perhaps they wanted a "flexy" arm that would give a little bit when it was under "stress". This would protect their gearboxes from damage.

Best guess...

John
__________________
In the interest of full disclosure: I work for VEX Robotics a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI) Crown Supplier & Proud Supporter of FIRST

Last edited by JVN : 14-12-2004 at 01:26. Reason: it's a puck, not a platform... silly me!
Reply With Quote
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-12-2004, 01:21
Travis Covington's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Travis Covington Travis Covington is offline
Engineering Mentor
FRC #0254
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 574
Travis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond reputeTravis Covington has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Travis Covington
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVN
Well if I remember correctly--
The tkats used that mean arm as a "stiffarm" to prevent teams from getting onto the platform. Perhaps they wanted a "flexy" arm that would give a little bit when it was under "stress". This would protect their gearboxes from damage.

Best guess...

John
mmm, yes, good call.
__________________
-Travis Covington

2008-2017 - Engineering Mentor of Team 254
2001-2008 - Engineering Mentor of Team 968
1998-2001 - Mechanical Director/Driver/Member of Team 115
Reply With Quote
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-12-2004, 02:42
ChrisH's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
ChrisH ChrisH is offline
Generally Useless
FRC #0330 (Beach 'Bots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA
Posts: 1,230
ChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond reputeChrisH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Has any team or anybody made a 80% - 100% lexan bot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky
Seems like people on CD are just out looking for something to be offended by. If there is anyone here who can't find significant design errors on every single robot in FIRST, they obviously don't know much about engineering or building robots.

Additionally, I didn't say categorically that the use of a material is bad, just that certain materials are commonly used incorrectly.
Please define "design errors".

If a particular design meets requirements, then by the definition most professionals use, it is correct. If it doesn't meet requirements then it is not. Requirements should NOT be general, like "it won't break". They need to be specific as in "won't break when subjected to a load of 100N in a particular direction". The more numbers the better.

We generally develop a list of requirements for our robot each year. It will include things like "move across the field at 7 ft/s" or "lift 45 lbs of boxes to a height of 3ft in 3 seconds or less". If it meets the requirements (including cost, weight, and time to fabricate) then it is a CORRECT design. That isn't to say it is the BEST design. There will always be room for improvement, but you can spend your life analyzing to get the best result only to find when you look up that it is now next year and there is a new game.

We tell our students "In this game, if you meet your requirements, you win. BEFORE you ever take the field." After that everything else is gravy. (BTW you will win on the field a fair amount of the time as well if you have set your requirements correctly)

We started doing this systematically in 1999. I can't think of a robot since then that hasn't been a "winner", though some have done better in competition than others.

In saying that every FIRST robot has significant "design errors" (whatever they are by your definition) you are impugning the skills of a fair number of technical people who do this sort of thing for a living. Kind of like an apprentice telling a master he's doing it wrong. So don't be too upset if people take offense because, quite frankly, you have just been offensive.

But you're young and foolish (all of 17 is it?) so we won't hold it against you.

ChrisH
__________________
Christopher H Husmann, PE

"Who is John Galt?"
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Death of FIRST Anton Abaya General Forum 23 03-05-2006 17:18
How do you organize your team? NoodleKnight Team Organization 18 03-11-2005 22:57
Thank a Team with an i-Pod !!! OZ_341 General Forum 8 20-04-2004 23:57
Team 524's bot Amadkow Robot Showcase 2 27-02-2002 20:36
Novi Kickoff Seminar List (Tentative) Joe Johnson General Forum 1 05-12-2001 13:47


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:31.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi