YMTC: Your Thoughts

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Alex469

Should we send the YMTC to the FIRST Q&A system when the vote is divided to get an official answer?
YMTC should be sent to FIRST every time it occurs. This might be useful to them as it shows arguements about developing issues and can allow them to give 'official' results or new rules when needed.
_Alex

You think they don't already follow them?


Wetzel

[meaubry]

Althought the YMTC threads have been pretty interesting during the off season, I agree with Steve W. in that this type of thread would be better suited for discussion during a different timeframe than during the hectic and already confusing 6 week build time. The reason I say this is that this type of discussion is perfect for discussion or interpretation, but it could also be counterproductive when a definitive answer is needed - not a hundred different opinions. The traffic on this site goes through the roof with just the normal spike after kickoff. Many teams need specific answers to specific and very real needs - I would hope that we concentrate on spending our time and resources that way instead.

[jonathan lall]

I'm sorry but I don't see the benefit of not discussing possible inconsistencies or controversies during the time we need to worry about them as robot designers. As Wetzel rightly pointed out, FIRST has its eye on these, and even if those who made ad hoc rulings and clarifications didn't directly follow chiefdelphi.com, the fact that the FIRST community is discussing issues that need to be addressed would be enough for them to issue such a clarification or ruling. Al Skierkiewicz mentioned an example in the most recent YMTC that under slightly different circumstances, a rule might have proven troublesome to Wildstang. Altering his example slightly, imagine getting to competition and finding out the inspectors interpreted the rules differently from you and told you your robot was overweight. To extend this, imagine three or four teams had this problem and hadn't thought to go through the arguably convoluted process of Q&A.*

In fact, if I were to ask Q&A eleven months ago what a ref would say if a human player threw a ball at the doubler being fought over by two robots, I would be told to refer to the rules or not responded to at all. I'm sure some of you would say, "But YMTC isn't official and can mislead people." I don't see how this could realistically happen. There are two things YMTC will do here, both good: first, it will bring to a team's attention that their interpretation of a rule might not be the right one, and second, it will place enough of a spotlight on the issue for FIRST to make a ruling. Suddenly that silly question in Q&A queue doesn't get dismissed so easily (yes I realize the example is pretty trivial).

I respect the motivation behind Steve's and meaubry's positions; the tapemeasure ruling of 2002 was probably not a good decision, but it was right to make a decision. Had there not been a ruling on this grey area, chaos would ensue, perhaps from regional to regional as Steve mentioned. Steve uses the word "consistency" to describe this situation, but I would say that FIRST was at least more consistent by making a globally binding ruling partway through the season. I have spoken with Steve and other members on my team about this particular one, and they hold the same opinion as I--that it was a bad decision. But a bad decision is better than no decision in this case. YMTC will help FIRST to not only make a decision when it is needed, but to make the right one.


* Any criticisms of the Q&A system you might have may be warranted, but the are not a reason to resort to YMTC. FIRST is trying hard to meet our needs, and the reasoning that because we can't get a "good answer" from FIRST we should discuss it on chiefdelphi.com is nonsensical, because as you (had better) know, YMTC is not official.

[seanwitte]

I think people should actively avoid the gray areas in the rules, making the YMTC threads unnecessary. Is it really so hard or restrictive to clearly stay within the bounds of the rules? Does a bad rule mean that people are obligated to push it? The first few weeks of the season make me cringe sometimes because theres this inherent need to nitpick everything. I think the YMTC threads advance the idea that its ok to push an edge case as long as you can justify it.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by seanwitte

I think people should actively avoid the gray areas in the rules, making the YMTC threads unnecessary. Is it really so hard or restrictive to clearly stay within the bounds of the rules? Does a bad rule mean that people are obligated to push it? The first few weeks of the season make me cringe sometimes because theres this inherent need to nitpick everything. I think the YMTC threads advance the idea that its ok to push an edge case as long as you can justify it.

As long as this is a competition teams will push the limits.Those that succeed are those who can push the envelope and still stay within the lines. Everyone always looks for the little something that will make them just that little bit better. One example was a ruling that came out last year about blocking 2 ball chutes by one robot. If it had of come out any later we would have been into heavy design to make it happen. It would be much better to have at kick off then we would not have even been considering that option.

[meaubry]

Perhaps I should clarify what I posted earlier. YMTC is one way to discuss and debate issues relative to things like "what would you do if ...". For rule interpretation during the 6 week build cycle, it would be appropriate to post a question about rules that may be ambiguous in hopes that the discussion may bring clarity to the community of FIRST users of this site. There are better defined ways to communicate with FIRST directly for rule clarifications than by the YMTC threads. It is one thing to discuss a rule in hopes of better understanding what is meant by it, and it is another to post opinions about exactly what FIRST means. The folks that create the rules are the only ones that really know what they mean - if one is not clear, give them the proper respect by allowing them to respond before speaking for them. Because YMTC seems very situational to me, sometimes it is difficult to put into words enough to avoid posts that stretch the bounds of the situation being discussed.Some of the past YMTC threads, start off in one direction and then get tweaked by someone else adding a "what if, that wasn't included in the original YMTC. Often, posts turn towards the dark side - when someone takes offense or can't understand why another person doesn't understand the obvious (which matches that persons opinion). During the 6 week build cycle - try to stick to really high value thread discussions - otherwise it is really hard to sort through the 100's of posts each day. Our website looses its effectiveness when people don't come here because there is just too much clutter and noise to sort through. In order to respond to user complaints about the quantity of new posts each day during the most important time of the year, I'm considering asking Brandon to shut down Chit Chat for the 6 build cycle also.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

I'm sorry but, I don't see the benefit of not discussing possible inconsistencies or controversies during the time we need to worry about them as robot designers...

Plus, it is just as easy for someone to completely ignore these discussions, and wait for an official ruling.

No offense, but when it is a question of "illegal" vs. "legal" I don't really care what public opinion says. I'll wait for an authority answer. Without an authority, my opinion is as good as anyones... and I'd trust my "gut" before I trusted someone else's.

The discussions are easy to ignore, therefore cause no problems.
Just as long as everyone understands they are completely unofficial, I see no harm in their continuing. We don't want some rookie wandering in here thinking he found gold when he's holding Iron Pyrite.

$.02
John

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

I'm sorry but I don't see the benefit of not discussing possible inconsistencies or controversies during the time we need to worry about them as robot designers.... Al Skierkiewicz mentioned an example in the most recent YMTC that under slightly different circumstances, a rule might have proven troublesome to Wildstang.

Jonathon,
I think it is important to point out that most teams (and I am guessing very close to 100%) will design their robot with a little fudge factor to stay well within the limits of the rules. The YMTC can be a good indicator of how far some teams can go and stay within the rules and how some team members may disagree. You will note from my previous posts that Wildstang is one of those teams that spends a good deal of the design process reading and rereading the rules. We do not build right up to the limits but stay shy by a small amount. (weight being our biggest issue.) I believe the rulings we have discussed in the other threads are not inconsistant or controversial except under the circumstances they were presented in. In the past FIRST has been responsive when a rule proved incorrect or too difficult to implement. i.e. the ground stud from last year. I believe in FIRST's ability to write a great rule book and to respond to the minor mistakes that could be made by a team that is understaffed and under tremendous pressure to get that documentation on time. I hope that FIRST staffers stop in these forums from time to time and know that they can ask any of us for opinions at any time.

[Natchez]

Everyone,

Thanks for your great input! After reviewing your thoughts and discussing this topic with others, we will continue to post YMTCs throughout the season. From your input, here are some guidelines that we'll use.

• Add a disclaimer that results are not official
• Request that participants refer to specific rules
• Send an email to first if a YMTC seems worthy for a FIRST official to review

With FIRST going to more of a general rule book that has the same feel as the Rules of Golf, we feel that it is important that FIRST provides something similar to what the golf community has developed, The Decisions of Golf. Developing a Decisions of FIRST book is NOT an easy task and can only be created after the general rule book has stabilized. YMTC is a way to create unofficial decisions that will help others understand the reasoning process of FIRSTers.

Let the fun begin ... T-32 hours,
Lucien