2004 Electrical Component Rule Rationale

[Nick Fury]

Originally Posted by phrontist

If a component is not offered by one of those vendors, it is not allowed.

The rule says, and I am quoting:

"or equivalent to those available"

This means you *do not* have to buy from those vendors but instead you have to buy parts that those vendors also carry. This is to keep it so that parts are readily available to other teams. It's not that big of a deal at all really.

If you can find parts that are not available through one of those vendors and can point me to them then I will begin to see the reason for getting rid of the rule but I can't think of anything that isn't available on digi-key or through hack shacks corporate part supplier end.

[Max Lobovsky]

There are thousands of niche ICs not sold through one of those suppliers that could be (extremely) useful to teams. Many of these are available online and available to anyone.

[Gdeaver]

Both Newark and Digi-key will special order parts that they do not stock if they are from one of their first tier vendors. The lead time may not be good for our build time window and they may have minimum order amounts. Newark will special order a PNI digital compass. It's not in their catalog. Is it allowed? Can I buy it direct from PNI ?

[phrontist]

The rule should mandate "electrical equivalence" for saftey reasons, but otherwise it's unessicarily restricting innovation.

[Max Lobovsky]

I think the real reason for this rule is the same as the reason for the maximum single electrical part cost. FIRST does not want teams putting a small PC or other powerful computer on the robot as it would drastically change the playing field.

Regardless, I think FIRST should just use the price limit and not restrict manufacturers as Phrontist said.

[Rickertsen2]

I personally think this rule is unnecessary and overly restrictive. I have run into problems with this rule several times. The selection of sensors from the approved vendors is rather limited. I think a better rule would be one that limits the max price per part, and states that the part must be available to all teams.

[Nick Fury]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

I personally think this rule is unnecessary and overly restrictive. I have run into problems with this rule several times. The selection of sensors from the approved vendors is rather limited. I think a better rule would be one that limits the max price per part, and states that the part must be available to all teams.

Out of curiosity, what parts? I mean, I can't think of much that you can't procure through digi-key or hack shack's corporate end. True, specialty IC's but you don't need to build a computer on the 'bot.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I can answer this one.
Way back when, you could do just about anything on mechanical but you were highly restricted on electrical. Those of us electrical types petitioned FIRST, through the feedback process, to give a little more leeway in electrical design by allowing more vendors. The current list is a progression of that request and further year's changes. By limiting the number of vendors, all teams are somewhat restricted to using the same components that are readily available to everyone. Inspectors are more able to make rational decisions when they see components that are available from a small list of vendors. Any questions as to availability can be easily answered on line or by phone. Everyone benefits! Add to this list, parts that are available through regular suppliers, i.e. McMaster-Carr and you have a lot of electrical stuff at your fingertips.

[Specialagentjim]

One other thought that occurred to me was enforcement. I've watched many teams "fudge" numbers on price costs. Who's to say that the "flux capacitor" you have on your robot didn't cost you 18 dollars through ebay, while it's 600 dollars to any other team. By limiting the items to whats in the catalog, it makes it much easier to enforce the rule.

EDIT: Hmm..kinda repetitious of Al, sorry. I guess it helps to read the latest posts before just going on and posting the new thought.

[Nick Fury]

Originally Posted by Specialagentjim

One other thought that occured to me was enforcment. I've watched many teams "fudge" numbers on price costs. Who's to say that the "flux capicator" you have on your robot didn't cost you 18 dollars through ebay, while it's 600 dollars to any other team. By limiting the items to whats in the catalog, it makes it much easier to enforce the rule.

I was under the impression that even if the part costs your team 18 dollars if you stick it on the bot you have to put down the retail price as the cost for the part. I thought that was how it worked anyway, I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with the part costs rules as I would like to be.

[Specialagentjim]

Originally Posted by Nick Fury

I was under the impression that even if the part costs your team 18 dollars if you stick it on the bot you have to put down the retail price as the cost for the part. I thought that was how it worked anyway, I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with the part costs rules as I would like to be.

...but if you don't set a standard (Digikey, Radioshack, etc.), who's to say what's "retail" cost.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Specialagentjim

...but if you don't set a standard (Digikey, Radioshack, etc.), who's to say what's "retail" cost.

Then what's your explanation of a lack of supplier restriction for all non-electrical parts?

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I can answer this one.
Way back when, you could do just about anything on mechanical but you were highly restricted on electrical. Those of us electrical types petitioned FIRST, through the feedback process, to give a little more leeway in electrical design by allowing more vendors. The current list is a progression of that request and further year's changes. By limiting the number of vendors, all teams are somewhat restricted to using the same components that are readily available to everyone. Inspectors are more able to make rational decisions when they see components that are available from a small list of vendors. Any questions as to availability can be easily answered on line or by phone. Everyone benefits! Add to this list, parts that are available through regular suppliers, i.e. McMaster-Carr and you have a lot of electrical stuff at your fingertips.

Thank You

[Craig Putnam]

OK - here's a specific example of the issue.

I have been working away on an optical mouse based navigation system. The mouse speaks the PS/2 protocol. While it may well be possible to get the PIC to be able to interface to a PS/2 device, there will undoubtedly be a fair amount of work involved in getting the bi-directional communications established and working reliably.

I happened to find a nifty little chip & resonator on the web that is specifically designed to interface between a PS/2 device and a microprocessor. It costs all of $30. I'd be willing to bet that the chip is in fact a PIC - but that's not the point. The point is that the chip/resonator kit is not sold by any of the vendors in the list. So - using a strict interpretation of last year's rule R71 (i.e. what I believe FIRST intended) - I can't use it.

The kit *is* available to anyone who wishes to buy it however so, assuming the vendor can handle the demand, the playing field is level. So if it's all about there being a level playing field and staying within reasonable cost boundaries, I think those criteria have probably been met.

I have indeed asked FIRST whether, looking in retrospect, they would have allowed use of the chip last year had I asked. The answer was that the Director of Engineering at FIRST "did not know if it would have been allowed last year." And of course they would not say whether rule R71 would be changed this year or not. That's no surprise of course and an entirely reasonable position to take.

[Craig Putnam]

Back to the original topic for this thread...

Given my reading of the message from FIRST today regarding parts suppliers, it seemed clear to me that the supplier I used for the PS/2 interface chip may now be legal. Hallelujah!!!

So I sent a message off to Al Williams, Inc. - the supplier for the chip. My question to him was simple: Did he feel that his company would meet the specified criteria?

I'll post his response here once I get it.