2004 Electrical Component Rule Rationale

[Nick Fury]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

I personally think this rule is unnecessary and overly restrictive. I have run into problems with this rule several times. The selection of sensors from the approved vendors is rather limited. I think a better rule would be one that limits the max price per part, and states that the part must be available to all teams.

Out of curiosity, what parts? I mean, I can't think of much that you can't procure through digi-key or hack shack's corporate end. True, specialty IC's but you don't need to build a computer on the 'bot.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I can answer this one.
Way back when, you could do just about anything on mechanical but you were highly restricted on electrical. Those of us electrical types petitioned FIRST, through the feedback process, to give a little more leeway in electrical design by allowing more vendors. The current list is a progression of that request and further year's changes. By limiting the number of vendors, all teams are somewhat restricted to using the same components that are readily available to everyone. Inspectors are more able to make rational decisions when they see components that are available from a small list of vendors. Any questions as to availability can be easily answered on line or by phone. Everyone benefits! Add to this list, parts that are available through regular suppliers, i.e. McMaster-Carr and you have a lot of electrical stuff at your fingertips.

[Specialagentjim]

One other thought that occurred to me was enforcement. I've watched many teams "fudge" numbers on price costs. Who's to say that the "flux capacitor" you have on your robot didn't cost you 18 dollars through ebay, while it's 600 dollars to any other team. By limiting the items to whats in the catalog, it makes it much easier to enforce the rule.

EDIT: Hmm..kinda repetitious of Al, sorry. I guess it helps to read the latest posts before just going on and posting the new thought.

[Nick Fury]

Originally Posted by Specialagentjim

One other thought that occured to me was enforcment. I've watched many teams "fudge" numbers on price costs. Who's to say that the "flux capicator" you have on your robot didn't cost you 18 dollars through ebay, while it's 600 dollars to any other team. By limiting the items to whats in the catalog, it makes it much easier to enforce the rule.

I was under the impression that even if the part costs your team 18 dollars if you stick it on the bot you have to put down the retail price as the cost for the part. I thought that was how it worked anyway, I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with the part costs rules as I would like to be.

[Specialagentjim]

Originally Posted by Nick Fury

I was under the impression that even if the part costs your team 18 dollars if you stick it on the bot you have to put down the retail price as the cost for the part. I thought that was how it worked anyway, I could be wrong, I'm not as familiar with the part costs rules as I would like to be.

...but if you don't set a standard (Digikey, Radioshack, etc.), who's to say what's "retail" cost.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Specialagentjim

...but if you don't set a standard (Digikey, Radioshack, etc.), who's to say what's "retail" cost.

Then what's your explanation of a lack of supplier restriction for all non-electrical parts?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I should add here that limiting the electrical vendors also accomplishes something else. An unlimited vendor list allows teams to use substandard parts and assemble electrical devices from non electrical parts. This is a safety issue that I am fully behind. I have stated before that the battery can be a source of personal harm and as such electrical devices need to be restricted. The current list is smaller than I would like. Mouser and MCM Electronics are two high quality vendors that jump to mind as added vendors. All of the vendors on the list carry similar parts and it allows teams a wider choice of inventory. That being said, I can live with the list as it stands.

[Specialagentjim]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

Then what's your explanation of a lack of supplier restriction for all non-electrical parts?

How many teams have a part placing machine (the ones at motorola are about a half million and so expensive to run we don't typically get access to it). How many teams have the ability to build their own ICs? Not many, right?

However, how many teams can take a chunk of stock steel and run it in a lathe to create a shaft? Most of them. How many teams can build gears? A good deal of them.

It's level because a part one team can manufacture themselves another team should be allowed to buy. It's much easier to build non-electrical parts from stock. Placing silicon in layers is still rather difficult for high school students.

[Sparks333]

lol no kidding. I would love the facilities to make our own ICs.

Random thought of the day.

Sparks

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Sparks333

lol no kidding. I would love the facilities to make our own ICs.

Random thought of the day.

Sparks

Ha! How much does that stuff cost?

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Ha! How much does that stuff cost?

The one we have here in Kokomo costs in the billions. I am not sure what the total cost would be for a IC fab plant, but we just re-tooled ours within the last 5 years and it was a $300-400 million dollar project.

Putting in a large-scale IC fab operation is somewhat on the same scale as building a modern power plant, and those cost well over 1 billion.

This year, we hit a milestone by making about 20 "perfect wafers" (5") in our fab here at Delphi. In the IC fab world, a "perfect wafer" with zero defects is a pretty big deal. We have been making 5" wafers for a long time (older technology), but recently have been making 8" wafers for the past couple of years.

The air filtration system in these types of places runs a single digit ppm, and has 10x the flow of air that a domed stadium has. Cool stuff.

(sorry to get off topic, but this IC fab stuff intrigues me)

Andy B.

[Specialagentjim]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Ha! How much does that stuff cost?

Like I said earlier, just the machine that PLACES the IC onto a board costs a half million for an old one, the new ones are like a million or more. They're unblievable to watch though, placing hundred or even thousands of tiny 20x40 resistors on a board per SECOND. amazing stuff.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Specialagentjim

Like I said earlier, just the machine that PLACES the IC onto a board costs a half million for an old one, the new ones are like a million or more. They're unblievable to watch though, placing hundred or even thousands of tiny 20x40 resistors on a board per SECOND. amazing stuff.

Prices have dropped during the past few years. Chip placement machines can be as cheap as $250k. It really depends on the type. Ten years ago, you could not buy a good one for under a million.

Andy B.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

I can answer this one.
Way back when, you could do just about anything on mechanical but you were highly restricted on electrical. Those of us electrical types petitioned FIRST, through the feedback process, to give a little more leeway in electrical design by allowing more vendors. The current list is a progression of that request and further year's changes. By limiting the number of vendors, all teams are somewhat restricted to using the same components that are readily available to everyone. Inspectors are more able to make rational decisions when they see components that are available from a small list of vendors. Any questions as to availability can be easily answered on line or by phone. Everyone benefits! Add to this list, parts that are available through regular suppliers, i.e. McMaster-Carr and you have a lot of electrical stuff at your fingertips.

Thank You

[Craig Putnam]

OK - here's a specific example of the issue.

I have been working away on an optical mouse based navigation system. The mouse speaks the PS/2 protocol. While it may well be possible to get the PIC to be able to interface to a PS/2 device, there will undoubtedly be a fair amount of work involved in getting the bi-directional communications established and working reliably.

I happened to find a nifty little chip & resonator on the web that is specifically designed to interface between a PS/2 device and a microprocessor. It costs all of $30. I'd be willing to bet that the chip is in fact a PIC - but that's not the point. The point is that the chip/resonator kit is not sold by any of the vendors in the list. So - using a strict interpretation of last year's rule R71 (i.e. what I believe FIRST intended) - I can't use it.

The kit *is* available to anyone who wishes to buy it however so, assuming the vendor can handle the demand, the playing field is level. So if it's all about there being a level playing field and staying within reasonable cost boundaries, I think those criteria have probably been met.

I have indeed asked FIRST whether, looking in retrospect, they would have allowed use of the chip last year had I asked. The answer was that the Director of Engineering at FIRST "did not know if it would have been allowed last year." And of course they would not say whether rule R71 would be changed this year or not. That's no surprise of course and an entirely reasonable position to take.