Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?

[Joe Matt]

Read this dabate from NYT:

The action on the playing field was strikingly different at the BattleBots IQ tournament, held for the first time in March in a cavernous soundstage at Universal Studios in Orlando. In the center of the soundstage, framed on three sides by bleachers, was a large plexiglass cube in which the matches took place. Saws popping up from the floor and heavy hammers hanging at the corners of the cube were controlled by students trying to damage the opposing team's robots. But the pit area was similar to those of First competitions: teams freely shared tools, spare parts and advice.

Among those who helped start the BattleBots IQ program are Nola Garcia, who still runs a Miami-based First team, and Michael Bastoni, a teacher from Plymouth North High School in Massachusetts who formerly took part in First and now fields teams for BattleBots IQ. Alex Slocum, an M.I.T. professor who studied under Dr. Flowers and works down the hall from him, helped write the robot-building guidelines.

In one confrontation, a robot built by students from Hauppauge High School on Long Island got caught under one of the hammers and endured a series of nasty whacks, one of which immobilized it, ending the match. Afterward, a man swept the metal shavings from the ring, and team members in blue coveralls and hard hats carried their robot into the pit area, where they analyzed what had happened. After removing its dented skin, they discovered the problem: a disconnected battery.

Some teams, like the one from Hauppauge, competed this year in both First and BattleBots IQ. Others at the BattleBots tournament were new to robotics competitions altogether, like the four schools from the Pueblo School District in Colorado, one of which fielded Tetanus, a menacing robot with a rusty blade that spun at 1500 rpm. A few schools had shifted from First to BattleBots IQ, citing the lower cost of taking part (a registration fee of $100 per team, plus whatever the team decides to spend on robot materials), the simpler game rules and the possibility of winding up on television or even having their robot transformed into a toy. (BattleBots has a licensing deal with Hasbro and says it will share toy and television royalties with schools that take part. First emphasizes the $1.2 million in scholarships that it will hand out this season.)

Can the two programs co-exist peacefully, bringing robotics competitions to a larger number of schools?

Dr. Flowers said that he believed that the educational merits of participating in First and in BattleBots IQ could "be quite equivalent" but that he worried about the safety issues raised by BattleBots. "If I were a principal, would I want students building something overtly dangerous?" he said. "It just scares me. And I'd be disappointed if it turns out that we need destruction for something to be interesting."

Mr. Bastoni said that the BattleBots IQ program enforced rigorous safety rules. "There is room for diversity," he said, noting that the Olympic Games include aggressive sports like boxing and hockey along with diving and figure skating.

Still, sniping between the two groups occasionally flares up. Mr. Roski of BattleBots has said that engineers, not students, do too much of the work on First robots; Mr. Kamen has argued that civilization does not advance by one group's demolishing the achievements of another, but rather by building something superior.

Odd as it may seem, the initial peace overtures seem to be coming from the organizers of Battlebots IQ.

"Kids love First and they love BattleBots," Ms. Garcia said. "They're two different engineering exercises. If I like chocolate ice cream, I can like vanilla, too."

So, is Battlebots IQ a serious threat to the moral and other positions FIRST has and FIRST itself? Or is it a half harted attempt to pre-umpt FIRST and will die along with Battlebots in the next few years?

IMHO, Battlebots IQ won't survive. It is too violent to be addapted outside of the US (except mabey in the UK). Plus, they currently hold rounds in Universal, so that's a death bed too. Plus, when was the last time you watched WB instead of ESPN or ABC which FIRST has.

Note: Note Dean's rebuttle to that FIRST relies to much on engineers.

[Joe Johnson]

I don't really like the choices for the poll.

The question is "Battlebots I.Q.- A serious threat to FIRST or a half thought up cheep copy?" But the choices for votes don't give me the answer I want to check.

My answer is YES Battlebots IQ (and its Daddy, Battlebots) is a HUGE threat to FIRST's success.

FIRST has ALWAYS been about changing the culture. For me, TV has got to be a big factor in bringing about that change. To the extent that Battlebots is draining off TV coverage that FIRST should be getting, it is a big threat to FIRST's long term goals.

Joe J.

[UCGL_Guy]

I've only recently seen Battlebots and have not viewed this IQ show. In my opionion the FIRST competitions are much more exciting to view. There is more strategy and a lot more functionality to the machines. As a threat to FIRST I do not believe the two "program" can be compared the have diverging views and goals. Would I support a program that promotes destruction? No too much of that already, I think we are all ready for something that highlights the good values in America.

My opinion - for what it is worth

[Natchez]

Give me more tools; I’ll use the ones that are most useful for the job.

Our job is to build future engineers because our country needs them. It just so happens that FIRST is the best tool in our toolbox right now but there is a lot of room left. If BattleBots IQ becomes a useful tool to do our job, then we should use it. BattleBots IQ might be the very thing that we need to convince some schools to give us their students so we can build them into America’s future scientists & engineers.

Currently, the best tools in my toolbox are FIRST & BEST (Boosting Engineering, Science, & Technology) for the high schools, LEGO League & Botball for the middle schools, and LEGO Spectrum system kits for the elementary schools. Although I consider FIRST the best high school spring competition and the best tool in the ole toolbox, I can definitely see using a BattleBots IQ tool for schools that can’t afford FIRST.

Considering the enormous amounts of bright and intelligent students that we are not harvesting because they just happen to live in rural Mississippi or any other poor part of the country and cannot afford FIRST, we must find or make tools that will harvest these students. If BattleBots IQ is that tool, then we must use it. By far, the best tool that we've had in the past few years has been the NASA sponsorships (all of the Mississippi schools have been started by NASA sponsorships ... and have done great things in their communities).

With all that said, my vote is that they can coexist as long as both sides stick to gracious professionalism. Can FIRST crush BattleBots IQ like a cheap aluminum coke can with a few choice remarks by a few influential people? YEP! Can BattleBots IQ put on a "FIRST costs too much" campaign and bring it to its knees? YEP! I just hope neither goes that route.

Take care,
Lucien

Something to ponder: You're in the finals at Nationals and the 1/4" bolts that hold your wheels onto your base are loose and all you brought to the stage was a pair of pliers and a screw driver, do you tighten the bolt with the less-than-perfect-tool-for-the-job pair of pliers or do you just let your wheels fall off because the perfect tool for the job, your trusty ole 7/16" open ended wrench, was back in the pits?

[Joe Matt]

Brandon, if you are reading this, can you change the poll options? Thanks.

Put:

Yes, serious threat
Yes, but not that big
No, but keep an eye out
No, don't pay attention to them

[BSMFIRST]

First of all, this is a loaded question...I've come to expect this bias on the forum though.

Second of all, the biggest threat to FIRST is FIRST itself. Just read this line from the article:

"At the First regional competition at the New Haven Coliseum, the crowd's energy level rivaled that of a homecoming football game. But to the uninitiated, what transpired on the field was as opaque as a livestock auction. "

Dan

[Patrick Wang]

I often find myself saying this point over and over again, but I feel that it is an important aspect that is often overlooked.

Being a part of a FIRST team is not just about building a robot.

Sure both programs offer an equal opportunity to learn and get excited about science and technology. Both can spark an interest in a student to do some research on his or her own time, and learn something.

However, part of the FIRST enviroment, and something that was also listed in the FIRST distributed team charter was something different.

I paraphrase,

"To build a team THEN build a robot"

What you learn from building an organization, especially a lasting strong organization cannot be quantified by any means.

So much goes into building a solid organization, it takes the efforts of more than simply a couple students in a garage building a robot.

Perhaps the high cost of entry into a FIRST robotics competition says something about EVERY team that participates in FIRST.

As Dean would say, Just MAKING it to a FIRST robotics regional, makes your team a winner.

There is a great deal of truth in this saying.

Imagine having to raise at least $5000 for entry, getting the help of local engineers and ultimately making sacrifices and working together, making compromises, the whole process is something to marvel over.

When your organization has grown into the community, and makes a difference in the lives of many, THAT is something to be proud of.

FIRST rewards that team with the chairman's award.

But every team in the FIRST competition should be proud of themselves for what they have accomplished.

Realize that only a small percentage of the nation would have the opportunities presented to student to grow not only academically, but also as people.

The worlds need more people like those who participate in FIRST.

That, I like to think is the distinction between a FIRST robotics team and Battlebots IQ team. (limited to only 5 members 4 students 1 adult).

Ultimately, it's not about learning to build a robot. It's about what you do AFTER FIRST. What are you going to contribute to the world?

I say this over and over, and I'll probably be saying this for every generation to come.

What you learn and experience in building your team and organization, and dealing with the people you meet. (often many great people) will far outlast any robot you build.

[Mr. Van]

It seems we don't like to admit this, but FIRST is already losing (has lost?) to Battlebots.

Whenever I speak to someone about building robots with my students without mentioning FIRST beforehand (and often when I have mentioned FIRST) they ask, "You mean like Battlebots?"

Many, many, many more people know about Battlebots than FIRST. The rules are simple, the "game" is simple. People like to see flying parts, sparks, something fighting for its survival, etc. Just like people like(d) to see gladiators and bear baiting (and bull fighting and kickboxing and WWF...).

There are far more kids out there who want to build a battlebot than want to join a FIRST team. For one thing, far more know about BattleBots (and similar TV programs) than FIRST. For another, adolesents (especially males) are driven in our society to be violently competitive.

All of this makes FIRST's job really, really hard. (And some would say that much more important.)

In the end, I will say this. I used to like BattleBots. I liked the demonstrations of driving skill, design, strategy, etc. Now, I am bored with it. The game is the same every time. Rather boring. Perhaps this is the advantage FIRST can exploit. Come back next time and check out the NEW GAME!

Just some thoughts.

-Mr. Van

[Perseus]

Nola Garcia: "I wish I was Dean"

Alex Slocum: " I am the next woddie"



a cheap imitation

[Andrew Rudolph]

FIRST is by far a better competition than battle bots, we can all see that. FIRST not only lets you build a robot, but you can also make animations, have sprit teams, design graphics....

At battlebots IQ you see none of these things, and in fact thier robots arent very technical. In the finals there were 2 wedges squaring off. I highly doubt that in a first robot all you will see is a drive train. You wont see technologically advaced machines like thw wildstang robot out there. Infact i doubt that most of the robots were even programmed past the default program. There werent any interesting control systems. And after walking around in the pits i could say that there are basically no sensors on any of the robots. So one could say they are just R/C Vehicles on steriods.

In the article it talks about the first team who competed in BBIQ and how after being pulverized it was KOed. What they dont talk about is that they had come back from being basically pulverized into a big piece of bent alumninum 2 times and came back. If you looked at thier robot it was basically a FIRST robot with armour. It was made from T slot extrusions and Wheelchair wheels. Of all of the robots they took the biggest beating. Now why did i tell you all of this? Because they used what they learned in FIRST made the mos basic first robot and they did amazinly well. So our robots are tough and complex at the same time.


I went to battlebots IQ in orlando and the atmosphere is almost an inverse of waht it is like at our competition. The crowd just sits there and watches. There were a few kids from Combbat there and anyone that has seen them at a compettion knows they have some of the best spirit. I dont think they had a team there, but when YMCA came on they all got up and did one of thier coordinated dances. And the crowd was stuned they all sat there as they danced and took pictures like it was a show. Now for us at a FIRST competiton we see crazy things like that all day long.

I think that BBIQ is good because it educates people on building basic robots and inspires some kids to go into engineering. But FIRST is by far the superior competiton, and even if battle bots has more appeal to the average joe. but FIRST competitors are FAR from the average, we learn so much from this competition and we have so much fun that any educator can see that FIRST is better. Most of the BBIQ robots dont have the quality of sponsors liek we have, so the corperations that are out there see that FIRST is better too. And i dont care if i dont go on TV cause i will build a robot anyway.



Andrew

[Digo]

Mr Van, I don't think FIRST "lost" anything.

You say Battlebots is winning because people know more about them than about us.

FIRST IS NOT A TV SHOW!

People like to watch those fake wrestling too, and it doesn't mean that's nice.

Although I know about a veteran FIRST team that went to battlebots, I don't believe they will find the same spirit there, the same targets, the same visions of what is happening.

It's wrong talking about a "FIRST vs. Battlebots" competition. I believe these are pretty different things and shouldn't be compared.

[ComBBAT_Albrot]

Andrew,
Yeah, we know what you mean. I personally didn't attend the competition (I'm not really a BB fan, and I had a busy day anyway), but I heard all the YMCA and snakeriding stories. It struck me as business as usual, until they started talking about how everyone stared at them like they were crazy, but nobody joined in.
FIRST may not end up as widely known as Battlebots, but that doesn't say much. I guess we'll just end up like diehard fans of a really good band that doesn't get the exposure they deserve.
Battlebots is to FIRST as N*Sync is to The Velvet Teen

Unfortunately, by its very nature, the mission to change society requires widespread attention. I think it would help if we could get better media coverage (for instance, getting ESPN to air us again or have a team that specifically pays attention to local news crews and prevents them from calling us "Robot Wars" or "Battling Bots" or anything like that)

[Not2B]

Remember good ol' Beta Max (am I that old?)

Beta Max was a much better product than VHS for all your recording needs. But VHS became more popular.

Let's say FIRST is better than BBIQ. That doesn't mean it will do better in the long run.

I worry that the game is too confusing to anybody who didn't spend 6 weeks of their life on it.
I worry that it is too expensive.
I worry that it isn't as well known, although it's been around more than 3 times as long.

Then again, ask the students I work for, and they would say I worry too much anyway.

Brian

[Greg McCoy]

I agree with Digo on this one. It seems to me that FIRST and Battlebots are totally different things. Battlebots was made to build machines to go beat each other around for fun. It's cool (at least for a while). FIRST was made to inspire students about engineering and technology in general. Battlebots will probably never compare to the amount of learning that is in FIRST.

Even if more people know about Battlebots and the like, I don't think FIRST has lost anything.

Originally posted by Not2B
Let's say FIRST is better than BBIQ. That doesn't mean it will do better in the long run.

Another Example: Microsoft

My $0.03

[fftwizard]

In all honestly, I don't think that there is really a threat to anything here. Sure, both programs have different goals and are using robotics in order to accomplish it. FIRST is for futhering engineering education and to show what students are really capable of; battlebots is merely for entertainment of the masses. I don't think either threatens the other.

FIRST is great program, but television audiances aren't ready for it. I mean look at what battlebots has become compared to what it used to be back in the day before when you had to actually order it on pay per view. The quality of the fights has dropped significantly since its airing on comedy central. This is the complete opposite of FIRST which in my opinion is doing better than ever. Battlebots is forced to accomedate audiances to get ratings while FIRST does not. Therefore there are no outside influences really trying to change what FIRST is trying to do.
My Two Cents.