FRC Manual in Advance?

[dez250]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

Joe - I hope you weren't referring to This Thread which I placed in the rumor mill. I did a search on " manuals password" and that's about all that came up. Who took the heat and grief, and who did it come from? The only "claims" were Joe Ross's of "a friend of a friend" and Elgin's of the password starting with 2, 15 characters - not exactly right, was it? Not exactly questionable characters according to their reputations, but they love a good rumor like I do. If FIRST is making decisions based on rumors (especially obvious tomfoolery) or uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated claims they should be hanging their head in shame, not me.

Hopefully this was a misunderstanding.

Take a look at This Thread, that has left a bad taste since then in many peoples mouths.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Somewhat off-topic, but is anyone preparing to start a Bittorrent seed of the documentation sometime shortly after kick-off? This would atleast reduce the load generated by the tech-savvy among FIRSTers.

I agree, a torrent tracker would really void the need for a early release of a password protected file.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Honestly, that thread is horribly misguided. It started out as a joke, and then someone came in with misinformation about it being possible for a large corporation to crack the encryption. This would be true if FIRST used the very, very basic 40-bit encryption. That can be cracked in a relatively short amount of time by just a single home PC. 128-bit encryption with a strong algorithm and a strong key like FIRST chose is entirely too hard to crack. You could throw dozens of supercomputers at the problem and you might have had last year's documents cracked in time for next year's competition. I'm sure FIRST understands that there is statistically no chance of the password being cracked in even a month, so I can only assume that the delayed release this year is for some other reason.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Honestly, that thread is horribly misguided. It started out as a joke, and then someone came in with misinformation about it being possible for a large corporation to crack the encryption. This would be true if FIRST used the very, very basic 40-bit encryption. That can be cracked in a relatively short amount of time by just a single home PC. 128-bit encryption with a strong algorithm and a strong key like FIRST chose is entirely too hard to crack. You could throw dozens of supercomputers at the problem and you might have had last year's documents cracked in time for next year's competition. I'm sure FIRST understands that there is statistically no chance of the password being cracked in even a month, so I can only assume that the delayed release this year is for some other reason.

Does it matter if it's a joke?

If I'm walking around in front of the whitehouse and make a joke about terrorists or George Bush dying, do you think the secret service agents are gonna go "yo dude, you makin a joke, or were you serious? cuz I really dont feel like getting up and doing anything about it right now" They're going to arrest me, no matter what my intentions were. Same as if you say "bomb" on an airplane.

Intentions don't matter for anything, it's all about perception and in this case FIRST perceived that these people were serious

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Cory

in this case FIRST perceived that these people were serious

How do we know that?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

How do we know that?

We assume they did... Joe made a reference to it

[sanddrag]

Once I get the files off the FIRST site, I can upload them to a couple servers I have accounts on in case the FIRST server gets bogged down.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by dez250

Take a look at This Thread, that has left a bad taste since then in many peoples mouths.

Thanks Dez - wow, I didn't realize what a debate I jumped into. Had I read that thread I probably wouldn't have posted my thread last year even in the rumor section. BTW I do understand the difference between joking around with people and saying "bomb" in an airport, and there is a difference. I wasn't aware that so many people were sensitive about this issue. Sorry Dr. Joe.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

I'm sure FIRST is not releasing the Manuals in advance due to the discussions about cracking the password last year. I'm also sure that whatever they decide to do, everyone will be able to access the files they need in a timely manner.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

BTW I do understand the difference between joking around with people and saying "bomb" in an airport, and there is a difference.

Yeah c'mon, haven't you guys seen Meet the Parents?

Really this thread's point has turned into beating a dead horse... no one knows if the manuals will be released ahead of time for sure, but we can assume no.

[Mike Betts]

Originally Posted by Gary Dillard

..If FIRST is making decisions based on rumors (especially obvious tomfoolery) or uninformed speculation and unsubstantiated claims they should be hanging their head in shame, not me...

Gary,

It is not the perceptions of the tech savvy CDers and not the perceptions of FIRST but the perceptions of the public which matters.

This is why some people, like myself, get upset when people make jokes or innuendo about cheating, hacking, et cetera.

There are scores of spiders crawling over this site almost all the time and many end up viewing these fori via Google searches, et cetera.

Bottom line: Thousands of interested people view these fori during the season including parents, grandparents, school administrators, corporate executives, et cetera.

How many corporate sponsors have backed out of supporting a team because his or her secretary reported on one of these remarks during an investigation on the integrity of the FIRST competition? How many parents have prevented their children from participating? We may never know...

Don't throw stones unless you are sure your windows are unbreakable... I am quite positive that ours are fragile indeed!

[Joe Johnson]

There was a LOT of talk about hacking the manual. If my memory is correct, I think some of it even had to be deleted because it started to refer to hacker sites, etc.

Betts and others are correct when they say the effect was not that the manual was actually cracked. It didn't matter that those who said it would be easy were wrong in every essential detail.

My mom and other non-tech folks had no way of knowing. It was corrosive to the fabric of the FIRST community to be talking about even trying to do it.

How would folks think about me starting a thread about how I COULD bypass FIRST's safegards and actually have a person in the stands secretly drive our robot during autonomous mode?

Would it matter that I put in in a Rumor Mill forum? Would disclaimers that it was all just for informational purposes make it okay? Would the fact that I wouldn't even try to do it make this an acceptable topic of conversation in a public forum?

I don't think so. The general public wouldn't know that it was all in fun or technically impossible or not in my nature. All they see is Wildstang's 2003 robot driving around the field acting for all the world like someone in the stands is driving it.

Wouldn't I have SOME responsibility for the doubt in their minds?

Joe J.

P.S. I promised myself that I'd put in a shameless plug for the "NBD: Nothing But Dewalts" whitepaper whenever I posted in the 2005 Season, so here it is: I believe this instant classic will take its place as one of the most important How To's FIRSTers have access to. JJ

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I COULD bypass FIRST's safegards and actually have a person in the stands secretly drive our robot during autonomous mode.

Joe, so that's how you do it.

Seriously I agree with Joe on this one.

Note: Joe's quote is taken totally out of context and should not be construed as factual.