FIRST Vendor Rules discussion

[Joe Ross]

Lets discuss this here, rather then in the announcement thread

Greetings Teams:

As a heads up for FRC teams in the 2005 FRC Competition season, 2005 FRC teams will be solicited to buy products from vendors for use in the FRC team's robot. A vendor's product could be a duplicate of a part and/or component that FIRST has supplied in that year's Kit of Parts. In addition, FRC teams need to be cautious and cognizant of the fact that the rules do change every year and parts that were legal in previous years may not be legal in following years.

In light of the upcoming 2005 FRC Competition season, FIRST is providing the following vendor qualification criteria to be utilized by 2005 FRC teams to assist them in deciding whether to procure a particular vendor's product for use on their robot (these criteria can also be found in the 2005 Robotics Competition Manual, Section 5.2 Definitions, after it has been released following the 2005 FRC Kickoff, Saturday, January 8, 2005):

VENDOR - A legitimate business source for Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) items that, as a minimum, satisfies the following criteria:

The VENDOR must have a Federal Tax Identification number.
The Federal Tax Identification number establishes the VENDOR as a legal business entity with the IRS, and validates their status as a legitimate business.
The VENDOR must be able to ship their product within five (5) business days of receiving a valid purchase request.
The FIRST Robotics Competition build season is only six weeks long, so the VENDOR must be able to get their product to a team in a timely manner.
Note that this criterion may not apply to custom-built items from a source that is both a VENDOR and a fabricator. For example, a VENDOR may sell flexible belting that the team wishes to procure to use as treads on their drive system. The VENDOR cuts the belting to a custom length from standard shelf stock that is typically available, welds it into a loop to make the tread, and ships it to the team. The fabrication of the tread takes the VENDOR two weeks. This would be considered a FABRICATED ITEM, and the two-week ship time is acceptable. Alternately, the team may decide to fabricate the treads themselves. To satisfy this criterion, the VENDOR would just have to ship a length of belting from shelf stock (i.e. a COTS item) to the team within five (5) business days and leave the welding of the cuts ends to the team.

The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams.
VENDORS must not limit supply or make a product available to just a limited number of FIRST Robotics Competition teams.
Ideally, chosen VENDORS should have national distributors.

Example distributors include Home Depot, Lowes, MSC, Radio Shack, and McMaster-Carr. FIRST competition events are not usually near home. When parts fail, local access to replacements is often critical.

Go Teams!

[Joe Ross]

I guess this answers the question as to whether andmark.biz is legitimate. It also disallows a team from making 10 of a part and then selling it to other teams (at least for this year, maybe by next year the team can get a tax ID).

[Greg Perkins]

So just to clarify things....what team 254 and team 60 did last year is technicaly illegal this year? you cannot "collaborate" and make a stock load of parts to share between different teams?

Also, i understand the rules fully, but does andymark.biz qualify those requirements??? please any information would be really viable and helpful.

[Max Lobovsky]

Where exactly does it say we can only buy from VENDORS and that we can't buy FABRICATED ITEMS or any other item, for that matter? So far, I don't think this has changed anything, has it?

[Katie Reynolds]

The VENDOR must be able to ship their product within five (5) business days of receiving a valid purchase request.

So if an item is on backorder - say, an IFI speed controller or some polycarb from the local Home Depot - and cannot be delivered in 5 business days, can we not use the part? Or is the vendor as a whole considered illegal, as it does not meet all of the vendor specifications?

[rswsmay]

Well, this does not totally discount AndyMark as being a legit supplier. Although it would make it extremely difficult for them to comply with these requirements. Note that the post stated "... as a minimum, satisfies the following criteria:". There may be other criteria, yet unrevealed that would further discount them or other suppliers from providing parts to FIRST teams.

The biggest impact of these posted rules as I see it is the 5 day shipping. I totally agree with the need for prompt shipping. But how enforceable will this be after the kickoff not only for smaller suppliers like AndyMark and 3rd parties like McMaster Carr, but also for official FIRST suppliers? If a supplier does not provide your part in a timely manner, what are the repercussions to them? Personally I can say that we never received any of our pneumatic cylinders from the official FIRST supplier last year. Even after repeaded calls, faxes, etc. This was a big impact to our final design. So, will all suppliers be held to the same level or service and responsiveness?

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

I guess this answers the question as to whether andmark.biz is legitimate. It also disallows a team from making 10 of a part and then selling it to other teams (at least for this year, maybe by next year the team can get a tax ID).

[Tristan Lall]

My first thought when looking at the text of the announcement was, remember the rest of the world!

Originally Posted by FIRST E-mail Blast

The VENDOR must have a Federal Tax Identification number.
The Federal Tax Identification number establishes the VENDOR as a legal business entity with the IRS, and validates their status as a legitimate business.

It is completely inappropriate for FIRST to restrict teams--especially non-U.S. teams--to U.S.-sourced parts. I hope that FIRST addresses this immediately, to the satisfaction of its international participants. I will, however, postpone final judgement until I read the complete text of the relevant section. Perhaps there are other options which are not clear in the initial announcement.

When Woburn was the only foreign team, and Small Parts was the only supplier, it was annoying; I remember those days, and the hassles involved with cross-border commerce. With teams in Israel and Europe especially, shipping within 5 days is theoretically possible, but exorbitantly priced.

[rswsmay]

Great Point..! I wasn't thinking globally when I discounted the Tax ID # issue. For most companies as well as individuals, the Tax ID # is not a big issue.

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

My first thought when looking at the text of the announcement was, remember the rest of the world!It is completely inappropriate for FIRST to restrict teams--especially non-U.S. teams--to U.S.-sourced parts. I hope that FIRST addresses this immediately, to the satisfaction of its international participants.

[Raul]

What is the significance of this rule you ask? My understanding is that only Vendors officially have COTS (of the shelf) parts and Fabricators supply custom parts. So what does this mean? If you follow last year's spare parts rules, I think it means that only COTS parts can be bought at any time for spares, just like a nut or screw. But if it is a custom part, it has to be made during the 6-week build period or at the competition site from COTS parts.

Whether AndyMark qualifies as a vendor or custom parts fabricator is yet to be established. I think they have all the makings of a vendor but need confirmation. Andy, have you gotten a seal of approval from FIRST or anything like that?

[Stephen Kowski]

I do not believe this is a spare parts rule quite frankly.....more of a guide for people that have never interacted with industrial suppliers and might need help identifying who they should and shouldn't buy off of.....

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

So just to clarify things....what team 254 and team 60 did last year is technicaly illegal this year? you cannot "collaborate" and make a stock load of parts to share between different teams?

Under last year's rules, parts made by any team counted as team fabricated. So 254 could make parts for 60 and vice versa. Because the parts were made by team members (and they had a comment about encouraging really big teams) they were treated as team made no matter which team built them.

Personally, I feel that continuing this tradition is important. Often teams with more resources will build parts for a less equiped team or give away spares at a competition. (the examples are too numerous to mention) If teams are restricted to using only parts that they have either paid for or fabricated themselves, then that will destroy this tradition and eliminate one opportunity for teams to operate in a graciously professional manner. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

Since even I can see the long term consequences of changing that particular rule, and they are all negative, I presume that the rule will stand as is.

BTW have those of you who complain about "rich teams" ever asked one of them for help with a problem part? The answer you get might surprise you...

ChrisH

[Andy Baker]

I, too, am anxious to read the 2005 FRC rule book. To me, the note from FIRST appears to be guidelines, especially at the beginning stages of the note. In the second paragraph FIRST is says this:

"FIRST is providing the following vendor qualification criteria to be utilized by 2005 FRC teams to assist them in deciding whether to procure a particular vendor's product for use on their robot."

This is a guideline to tell teams how to pick a vendor in order to succeed through the FRC build season.

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

Also, i understand the rules fully, but does andymark.biz qualify those requirements???

They list the criteria in the body of the note, as follows:

"The VENDOR must have a Federal Tax Identification number" - yep, AndyMark has that.

"The VENDOR makes their products available to all FIRST Robotics Competition teams." - Our products are available to anyone who buys them from our website, even competitors from other countries.

"Ideally, chosen VENDORS should have national distributors." - This is good criteria that teams should use. AndyMark provides distribution through yahoo.com (receiving orders), and can deliver quickly through UPS, FedEx, and USPS.

"The VENDOR must be able to ship their product within five (5) business days of receiving a valid purchase request." - We will do our best to ship our products within 5 days of our customers placing an order. In my opinion, this 5 days is very restrictive. I can think of countless items (bearings, gears, Bosch motors, playing field balls, tank treads, extruded aluminum, pneumatic devices) that did not adhere to this criteria in past FIRST games. I like this criteria if the word "must" was changed to "should".

Originally Posted by Raul

Andy, have you gotten a seal of approval from FIRST or anything like that?

I called FIRST for clarification today, and was told to proceed with our business plan to sell our off-the-shelf components to FRC teams (and anyone else).

Andy Baker

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by ChrisH

BTW have those of you who complain about "rich teams" ever asked one of them for help with a problem part? The answer you get might surprise you...

ChrisH

that is a great comment and very true. My team isn't rich by any means but we try to be well stocked with parts and supplies and do our best at fund raising but there has never been a time that when another team rich or not that we have turned them down unless we didn't have the part.
also when the rest of the rules are all show en all this fuss will die down in previous years FIRST has resolved most major problems in the team updates that will probably include the one that is being talked about in this thread just have faith in FIRST and everything will be OK .... i hope

[Stephen Kowski]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

This is a guideline to tell teams how to pick a vendor in order to succeed through the FRC build season.

ah so we can all relax now knowing that this is not a spare parts ruling nor something tell you must buy from US Vendors thx andy

[Kevin Sevcik]

I think the 5 day shipping thing probably means the vendor ships orders in 5 days under normal circumstances, as opposed to during build season when swamped with orders from 1000 teams.