Open Brainstorming Thread

[Greg Needel]

well i decided i would start this thread now since i am heading to NH in a few hours, and i really wanted this around when people start having their initial ideas about the game.

so the function of this thread is basically just to post any idea concerning the function, strategy, or anything else robot or game related. I know that in the past people tend to safeguard their ideas about the game and robot but this year i propose you let your ideas flow free. this will provide an opportunity to help rookies form strategies and form ideas, while giving veteran teams fresh ideas...overall idea sharing is a great tool and will benefit the whole FIRST community. I know i will be posting ideas to this thread and i encourage everyone to do the same.

[Greg Needel]

ok well now since i am back from kickoff (sort of) i thought i would start this out by some of my initial impressions and thoughts

if you put a tetra on top of the goals with the magnet hangers the inside tetras fall automatically

when you stack a tetra on top of a goal the spacing is 6 inches so every time you put a new one on you have to lift it six inches taller


strategy
1) build a big stack of them on your robot being fed from the automatic and put the whole stack on top of a goal.

reasoning: 1 it makes it much harder for others to put tetras on top because of added height, each one is worth 3 points each and a large number of them will counter act the rows made

2) keep your robot playing defence in front of human player loading zone so they would be unable to get tetras on the field

3) in auto mode go to the other side of the Field before engaging your vision so you are going for the same one as the other alliance

reasoning: 1 it is a defensive move, 2nd it will still give you the opportunity to get the tetras and give you the possible block


more to come.... please add your ideas and suggestions

[Koko Ed]

Basically build a bot like this.

It's fast. It's strong. It's tough. You can't tip it over.
Just change the arm to grab the tetrahedras and you have you have the first completed robot of the year.
Must be nice.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

Kokoed, I think you bring up a really intersting point. One thing I notice about the robot in your picture is that it probably has a pretty stable center of balance. The tetras are 9 pounds, which means your 120 lb. robot needs to be able to stay firm and quick despite that extra weight.

Something I noticed is that if you want to work out that whole "10 points for behind end zone" thing, your robot base might have to be slightly smaller. This may cause problems, who knows!

- Genia

[coreyjon]

Keep in mind - 9 pounds doesn't sound like much, but when you get that kind of weight cantilevered out on the end of a long arm and you move or bounce around, you can really do a lot of damage to the drive mechanism or the structure of the arm itself. Good Luck Teams.

[ngreen]

Here is what I thought of:

[Nick Mac]

I really like the way this years game has been designed because there are no single objectives that are worth huge points. There is definitely going to be a lot more strategy needed because its not like a team is just going to be after a pole or a hill so they can get big points. teams are really goign to have to work this year, and do more counting than usual in order to get the win. I love it!

[geeknerd99]

We did some calculations right after we figured out the rules, and in fact, the best way to win is NOT to cap everything.

I'm a noob this year, so I'm not exactly too sure what one of the vets was talking about, but he was saying something about tournament rankings being more than win/loss ratios. It seems that when 2 win/loss ratios are the same, they will resort to the opponent's scores to see who did better. Obviously, 208127197923 to 2 is better than 151 to 150.

So, that leaves two options (both of which are pushed to the extreme). You can completely trounce the other alliance, capping EVERY SINGLE TETRA and getting all the bots in the end zone, resulting in a 210-0 win. Looks great, but I don't think that counts as much in ranking as the following procedure:

Both teams cap all 40 tetras and end up behind the line, but the arrangement of rows ends up as something like | | |.

This results in something along the lines of a 150-140 victory for red. Still a win, but also ranks you better.

[RbtGal1351]

Originally Posted by Nick Mac

I really like the way this years game has been designed because there are no single objectives that are worth huge points. There is definitely going to be a lot more strategy needed because its not like a team is just going to be after a pole or a hill so they can get big points. teams are really goign to have to work this year, and do more counting than usual in order to get the win. I love it!

DITTO!
its one of the first things we realized about the game this year

we also realized how some of the robots from last year would work really well. last year we had a 10 ft. extending ladder w/ hooks on the end of it, and one of our guys goes, hey, rebuild last years bot, turn the hooks around, and we've got our bot! some of other teams would be good too, like the ones who lifted the 2x balls.

good luck to all and have fun!
~Stephanie, and the rest of team 1351

[Cyberguy34000]

Isn't there something in the rules about reusing old robots?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Cyberguy34000

Isn't there something in the rules about reusing old robots?

Never heard anything like that but if you retool and repackage the robot how would anyone know? I was told the X-Cats used to cannibalize their old robots for parts but we like to keep the old robots intact if for nothing else as a learning tool (and it's really cool when you break them out for show). Over the years you can learn alot.

[Nick Mac]

A lot of teams have been known to use their robots for parts. Why not? If something was manufactured and done well why not copy it or even use it...or if you just plain didn't have the parts because you can't afford to be buying more stuff, then you definitely should be able to use it. We keep our robots for the most part intact. We've got several on display and last years in our school. But teams should be able to do what they want with them. That's just what i think.

[Barry Bonzack]

If it is decided within the final moments of the game that it is more important for your alliance to have a robot out capping instead of being behind the line, send one robot out to assist the capper, and one to go to the other alliance's line and block one of their bot from getting behind their line to keep them from getting the bonus as well.

[Ikeyballz]

The game this year seems interesting, but I think there might be a problem...Since the only way to score any points worth scoring seems to be stacking, I think we will see a lot of stacker bots.

I'm kinda half expecting a team to build a robot that pretty much builds a wall over the middle 3 goals.

I think the scores this year for qualifying will probably fall between 40-60 Pt's. Since theres so much robots on the field, I also expect lots of collisions .

g00d luck to all!!

[EddieMcD]

Two words make this year exciting: Game Theory.

First, keep in mind that tetras ON a goal can't be removed. That brings these three factors into play:

1) Ownership of a goal can change with one cap of a tetra. Are you going to wait until the end so your tetra doesn't get capped? Will you go for a certain goal thinking that the opponent is going for another goal? Do you fast-break and try to cap all the goals first and play defense?

2) Tic-tac-toe is as much a chess game as, well, chess. This also takes into account what you and your opponent are doing, multiplied by three. Where are you going to be on the board in relation to them?

3) An opponent can remove tetras from IN a goal just as easily as you can. If that's your only purpose as a push bot, great; you've got a pretty decent niche. Just remember that as your removing tetras from IN the goals, your opponent can do the same.

Game theory part deux: autonomous mode (yay, 15 second longer match times). I have no clue how many in the field will be able to succesfully nab the vision tetras, but keep in mind that both you and your opponent could be capable of it. That bonus one tetra could be the difference in completing a tic-tac-toe for a bonus 10 points and winning by a couple, or letting your opponent get his bonus tetra and then cap your goal for the win. But fear not: for those non-vision tetra people, you can just knock the hanging tetras down for an extra point. Which again can be enough for a win, though keep in mind your opponent is probably doing the same.

The entire game may come down to which coach knows where to place his last-second tetra. Of course, it may be a moot point if all of the opposing alliance is in the end-zone, though maybe your last tetra TAKES a tic-tac-toe from the opponent. This brings up another factor: when to move for the end-zone. If you place your last tetra and move to the end zone, the opponent can just as easily cap over your tetra (or cap another strategic goal) and ruin your day when you bolt. But again, you can do the same.

I figure this game isn't about which robot is best; it's just like poker (it's not a game of cards, it's a game of people). Either way, this game is quite spectator friendly, even without knowing the point values. And I've only scratched the surface of the game theory on this.