What do you think about how easy theyre making programming?

[Greg Marra]

Trust me, if all the scripting can do out of the box is drive, turn, and wait, it's not going to be effective.

You still need to figure out how to get your camera to home in on the vision tetra, track where you are in relation to the goal you're capping, and then raise up the tetra to cap it.

Of course, when you're done you'll be able to write a script command called "cap vision tetra center" and then have 1 line of code for all of autonomous

[Enterprize]

I think its great that they're doing this. It gives rookie teams a much smaller (and less hectic) workload programming-wise and for veterans, well, like people have mentioned before, its not necessary to use the code. Even if your team does decide to use the code, its not like you wont have anything to do. You'll still need to program autonomous mode and any appendages/sensors your robot needs.

[LBK Rules]

I personaly like it.

We had so much trouble trying to write up line-sensor code.

Thank you FIRST!

(And nice avatar, Enterprise.)

EDIT

You know what, I really hope FIRST will tell us where to get these tools.

[TheOtherTaylor]

With the easy code everyone can think more about game strategy. This thing's like a massive moving tic-tac-toe. It's going to get pretty crazy with six teams out there trying to strategize on the fly.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by Alex Pelan

THis is making it so that everyone has at least something for their autonomous mode.

I think you're right. At first, I felt a little selfish about it, because I didn't like the feeling that suddenly everyone was at the same level, even though I have more programming skill/experience than others, because that's how I spend my time. However, I'm now seeing how this is all part of the field-leveling plan of FIRST, to make things accessible to new, underfunded, or undermentored teams, but still allowing those who can go above and beyond to do so. With this scripting, virtually every team should be able to at least knock off the hanging tetra, but not manipulate the vision tetra without a lot of additional effort. Those who have done this before will still be able to do fantastic things in autonomous, but at least all of the teams will be able to do something.

[mikew]

I was worried about this for all of 3 seconds. However, autonomous is just a little part of the game that rookies can get into now. 15 seconds, big deal. I think it's good to have something happen in the first 15 seconds now.

The real reason I'm not worried about rookies having this capability though, is because my team spends a lot of creative effort on designing and programming the drive system. Until FIRST supplies code for our particular flavor of omnidrive, I still get to keep my "job".

Scripting is not the answer to all programming problems. Teams with experienced programmers will still have an advantage over those that don't, but you'll need a pretty good programmer to have an advantage in autonomous mode.

Oh, and writing HTML isn't programming. (though at times, it maybe just as frustrating)

Yep, I'm elitist enough not to worry.

[CJO]

1. We have to actually get the new scripting module before it does any of us any good.

2.

You still need to figure out how to get your camera to home in on the vision tetra, track where you are in relation to the goal you're capping, and then raise up the tetra to cap it.

Actually, I think the camera in one of the coolest parts of the kit because it is multi-layer. It comes with on-board tracking software, but you can also completly re-write the camera to run more advanced functions, I have already come up with a way to do calibration without a PC, instead using a small lcd screen.

[Michael Desch]

Our team spent the last three months developing a PID controller capability. How do THINK we feel! FIRST is losing sight of the fact that it's supposed to be an engineering challenge. The real world is not plug-and-play.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

This thread disgusts me.

FIRST is giving you a great tool, and you are bad mouthing them because it "dumbs down programming"

As far as I see this, these tools are just a basis FIRST gives us to springboard to new heights. FIRST has given us drill motor transmissons and the tools to build a bot right from the KOP in the last few years, but you dont see people complaining that they didnt make it themselves.

Use these tools as a starting point, not as an end product.

[mikew]

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

This thread disgusts me.

FIRST is giving you a great tool, and you are bad mouthing them because it "dumbs down programming"

As far as I see this, these tools are just a basis FIRST gives us to springboard to new heights. FIRST has given us drill motor transmissons and the tools to build a bot right from the KOP in the last few years, but you dont see people complaining that they didnt make it themselves.

Use these tools as a starting point, not as an end product.

Hey hey, calm down, every programmer has a right to feel pissed. Now it's very very difficult for teams to compete and have an advantage due to good programming. Programming has always been at a bit of a disadvantage, since I doubt there are many mentors on teams who code for a living. I imagine teams try to get mechanical engineers and people of that sort more than programmers. It feels like FIRST is trying to eliminate any challange in programming by giving all these premade packages, but I personally think it lets those teams without awesome programmers to compete on the same level, and gives those with great programmers a challenge.

[seanwitte]

Originally Posted by Michael Desch

Our team spent the last three months developing a PID controller capability. How do THINK we feel! FIRST is losing sight of the fact that it's supposed to be an engineering challenge. The real world is not plug-and-play.

I'm curious why this matters so much. You can do a search on this web site and find plenty of examples of PID controllers. You still have to know what it does, how to tune it, and how to debug it when it doesn't work. You know how to do all of that now so you're ahead of the curve.

Unless you build the default robot chassis with the supplied gearbox you will have to modify and adapt any code they provide. Any other area of software development has tons of examples of how to do things. FIRST, in the past, provided little to no information specific to programming a robot. They are doing the right thing by filling that gap. I highly doubt the samples will be anything more than a starting point.

[Manoel]

I think this is a great thing, not only the code but the improved chassis and transmission.
To all the veteran teams with fancy PID, line-tracking, IR-following and RPS (Robot Positioning Systems ) algorithms, I'm sorry, but it's gonna need improvement, because every single rookie in this competition already has one, supplied by FIRST.
Get the point? What FIRST is doing is fantastic; rookies jump into this competition with much better tools than they used to have, and veteran teams are "forced" to improve their systems because the bar was significantly raised.
In theory, what FIRST does is supposed to level the playing field, but I'm sure they know that they'll never accomplish that; instead, they are indeed raising the overall level of the competition, and this is great to make FIRST bigger than it currently is, and that's what we all should strive for - more teams, more people involved, more lives touched.

[hoag]

I don't know what to think of it.

I didn't do a lot with programming last year; but I guess this will leave me with more time to look at other things like trying to replace the joysticks with a playstation controller. (if possible)

Hopefully the camera will be a success with the vision tetras.

[CJO]

I do not think that they are making programming particularly easy. I have spent the last 10 hours trying to add the math, encoder, interrupt, camera, vision control, and serial control libraries/modules to the FRC 2005 default code. I have managed to make most of the modules work together, but some of the Camera modules are crap. They refuse to compile "out of the box" I have spent two hours tracing the code and calls and trying to make them work with Kevin Watsons LCD serial controller. The software is anything but simple (just read the camera manual). I think that you guys are constructing something in your minds which does not exist.

[IAmDave0887]

the programming is too way easy this year. Writing the code this year is going to be boring and too simple. 2 years of programming classes down the drain. Oh well now we have more time to build instead of debug so its not all a bad thing. Good luck to all the FIRST teams this year. 44 days of build time left as of now