Pushing robots out of loading zone

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Aignam

If in having a pushing match or playing defense, one or both of the robots happen to cross over or accidentally touch the loading zones, but there is obviously no intent to use the loading zone, is it still considered illegal?

That would be a good question for Q/A. I think the whole "intent to use the loading zone" would be a big debate. But I agree in that if you are in a pushing situation, and you push them into the loading zone, they could claim that they were trying to get a tetra and that it should be a penalty.
I don't know how they will enforce, interpret, or play out this rule. I think it will be difficult since the rule allows you to be touching any part of the zone to be considered inside it. The rule states that that zone is not intended as a "safe" zone for teams to squat in during the match, but as a safety issues so that tetras can be loaded without injury. In a pushing match scenario, I think it would be difficult for the opponent to see across the field and know if his prey is touching that zone or not. I don't know. This one will be an interesting rule.

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

I don't know how they would apply a 30pt penalty to just one team, since the score is an alliance score. So the 30pts would come off that alliance's score. If someone gets a DQ, I believe it's a DQ for the alliance.

I'm not yet clear on exactly how these penalties will be imposed, but it is possible to penalize a single team. While each team in an alliance gets the same score, any individual team's score could be reduced by the penalty amount. We are supposed to be working WITH our alliance partners, but we cannot control their actions. And it would be unfortunate for the entire alliance to be penalized for the ungracious actions of a single team.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

I'm not yet clear on exactly how these penalties will be imposed, but it is possible to penalize a single team. While each team in an alliance gets the same score, any individual team's score could be reduced by the penalty amount. We are supposed to be working WITH our alliance partners, but we cannot control their actions. And it would be unfortunate for the entire alliance to be penalized for the ungracious actions of a single team.

Hmm... You know... when I read G06, about a HP leaving the HP pad too soon, the "team" will get a 10pt penalty. Then if it's serious, that "team" may be disabled and DQ'd.

In S05 rule, a robot may not impede the hand-offs of tetras, or the auto loading by field attendant, or the robot will be disabled, and DQ of the "alliance".

But.. in reading G15 with the no interfere rule, it does say that if a violation occurs, a 30pt penalty assessed to the "alliance"... they throw 3 separate flags (10pt ea).

There are some unclear penalty pt assessments in G13, G17, and G21. Just says a 10pt penalty will be thrown (for the respective violation), but doesn't say to team or alliance.

G22 says is the coach touches the controls, the robot will be disabled and "team" DQ'd.

There may need to be some clarification from FIRST on some of these and how they will deduct points and assess penalties in all cases.

[midorigin]

<S05> A ROBOT may not impede the placement of TETRAS on the loading structures or the hand-off of a TETRA by a HUMAN PLAYER to a ROBOT. No HUMAN PLAYER or field attendant may be accosted by a ROBOT while placing TETRAS. Violations will result immediate disabling of the offending ROBOT, and disqualification of the alliance.

is anyone as worried as i am about just accidentally running into a loading robot? seems quite dangerous considering the consequences...

[IMDWalrus]

Originally Posted by midorigin

is anyone as worried as i am about just accidentally running into a loading robot? seems quite dangerous considering the consequences...

THat is a serious punishment, yes, but I can understand why it's there. Having the human players in close contact with the robots like that could result in some very severe injuries happening, especially during autonomous mode.

Come to think of it, that seems like it would be the only real issue here. Accidentally running into a robot during driver control shouldn't happen often, but it could definitely occur in autonomous.

[JohnBoucher]

I am curious how they will ultimately define loading zone. Does your robot need to touch the colored triangle? If my robot has a four foot arm, it could pick from the station without entering that area. Can the robot be pushed while it's am picking up the tetra even if the frame is outside the loading zone?

[Aignam]

Can somebody submit this query to the Q&A if it isn't there already?

[Guido470]

I think the zone is including the space above the triangle on the floor, so if youre bots 4 foot arm crossed that space while getting a tetra then anyone hitting you would get all the same penalties as if the whole bot where in the zone. You cannot use this to stay safe the intire game with a movable second arm because of some rule or other saying that you can't stay in the loading zones.

[AmyPrib]

I do think that the G15 interference rule should be better defined, due to all the questions... but...

It says you can't touch a robot that is touching it's loading zone (the triangle) and retrieving a tetra.
So it implies that if any robot is touching it's loading zone, it can be retrieving a tetra, and since you have to be "in" your loading zone to retrieve a tetra, touching the zone is then considered "in" the loading zone...
This implies you physically have to be touching the triangle on the ground.. and not have an arm suspended in the air above it.

There is the concern from earlier in a pushing match, if the two bots accidentally, or unknowingly, touch or get into one of their loading zones, then how do they determine if the "intention" was for the bot to pick up a tetra? If I'm pushing someone near their zone, they may decide "ok, I'm near, I'll just go into my loading zone and get a tetra instead of fighting with this guy".... so where do you draw the line of intentional interference, vs "happening" to be in contact with the other bot before and then as he enters his loading zone.. or even pushing him there yourself...

The auto side, I don't know how they can judge intent. On the HP side, maybe they can judge intent on if the HP leaves his pad to go supply a tetra. If it were just a pushing match, and two bots roll over the load zone, the HP doesn't have to leave the pad if they weren't planning to load at that time. Then as soon as the HP leaves his pad, that signified a robot is gonna load, so the pusher better back off. That would be hard for the pushing driver to really see, but maybe if you're anywhere close to the opponents load zone, you play "safe" defense on them to avoid penalties.. i.e. if you see them touching the zone, back off immediately.

I dunno, maybe it won't be so bad, but there could be some instances of confusion or unawareness, and possibly debate.

[Michael Hill]

I think you have to intend to get a tetra for it to be considered a "safe zone." However, how will referees be able to judge intent?