Does <R14> preclude you from practicing after the Fix-it Window

[Mike Ounsworth]

On that note, R14 states that:
"...Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game playing strategies, collect raw materials, etc."
I would say that practicing with a practice 'bot falls under the categories of 'gather and exchange information' and 'develop game playing strategies'.

[Aignam]

As of right now, practicing with a practice robot seems to be both legal and within the spirit of the rules. Perhaps this will be changed in one of the many updates to come.

[Noah Melamed]

I think this is a perfect question for the pre-season YMTC series of questions.

[Natchez]

Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.

Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien

[Mike Martus]

Following the extreme path even farther ....... would putting down tools include Shutting off ChiefDelphi.com? Should FIRST and Innovation FIRST disable all the tools (programming) they have provided? Should FIRST shut down their web site for the time period?

Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?

Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?

Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.

In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.

To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.


BTW-at the regional meetings last year FIRST people asked how many teams built a second robot. Better that 1/2 of the teams there (MI) did. If there is going to be a rule change not allowing this, there willl be a lot of unhappy teams if they wait to long.

[Jack Jones]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

...
In my opinion this rule could evolve into anti-FIRST, anti-education and if any of the above come true the destruction of the FIRST Organization in a very quick crash and burn.

To sum up - I think restricting teams from making practice robots would be a serious error on the part of FIRST.
...

Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.

Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?

[Kris Verdeyen]

Originally Posted by Jack Jones

Amen Brother Martus. I didn't think they could do worse than last year's spare parts rule, which I likened to some kind of religious mindset - I.E. The FIRST Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath by keeping it holy. Six weeks you shall labor and do all your work, but the days until the first event and those between are the Sabbath to the FIRST. On them you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your engineer or engineerette, nor your Bridgeport, nor the teacher within your gates. For six weeks the righteous moved the heavens and the earth. Therefore, the FIRST blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.

Appears that now it's gone all the way to fanaticism?

You're being facetious, but why not? What is wrong about limiting this madness to six weeks? High school football teams are limited as to what they can do when, i.e., you can lift weights and work out all summer, but you can't have an actual practice until so many days before the season starts. The reason rules like that are in place is so that those coaches who are most willing to take up every minute of their players' lives don't have as much of an advantage over those who are unwilling to.

The concept of a "Sabbath" might be based in religion, but it's not there arbitrarily - people really do need time to rest. You absolutely need time to stop focusing on work, and (literally or figuratively) smell the roses (unless you happen to be a florist, then just figuratively). Extended periods of highly stressful activity (like FIRST) take their toll on our physical, mental, and spiritual health, on our family, on every aspect of our lives. It makes sense that the time period that we do this should not be unduly extended, and that those who would extend it for themselves and for their students should not gain a huge advantage over those would rather take a breath.

We need well-rounded future engineers, and that's what FIRST is promoting with this rule.

[Kris Verdeyen]

ID: 1026 Section: 5.3.3 Status: Unanswered Date Posted: 1/10/2005
Q: Does <R14>, particularly "the team must put down their tools", preclude teams from using their tools to build, repair, and/or modify a practice robot between the Fix-it Window and competition? Simply, can teams "practice" after the FIW?

It's day three of Q/A 1026 watch. Emotions are tense here at FIRST HQ as the Question 1026 Answer Determination Committee meets for the third day of deliberations. What will the answer be? When will it come? The entire FIRST community waits with bated breath. Or maybe not - maybe they just get started on their robot.

[Greg Ross]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

The entire FIRST community waits with baited breath.

bated. (Unless you mean we're smelling a little fishy. )

[Kris Verdeyen]

Are there questions that the Q/A folks will simply refuse to answer? I didn't pay much attention to the Q/A board last year, so I don't know if we ended the season up with questions still in the queue, other than those that were previously answered, or explained thourougly in the rules, or stupid.

I hate to say this, but the more that FIRST drags its feet answering this one, the more the rule looks deliberately vague. It appears as though it was written specifically so that FIRST could test the waters on the issue of practice robots while leaving themselves an "out" once the season comes.

Look at it this way:
If they wanted, absolutely, for us to not make practice robots, they could have said, "It is illegal for a team to practice the game with a robot in the time between ship and their regional."

If, on the other hand, they had not wanted us to work on the actual competition robot between ship and the regional, well, then no rule change would have been needed at all. That's always been the case.

The only reason for FIRST to have included this rule, and worded it the way they did is as a compromise. The rules committee had both pro- and anti- practice robot factions who couldn't agree on one of the above versions, and this muddy middle of a rule is what resulted. Now that their indecision has been pointed out, they don't want to anger either side by issuing a ruling, so they're staying mum. I can't say I blame them.

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

Should we all stop fundraising? Should we all stop mentoring activities with youth? Should we stop promoting our team? Should we stop organizing travel, room arrangements, and details for events?

Even more remote and extreme should all students stop learning about robots, motors, programming, animation, welding, electronics and go to veggin out in front of the mindless TV programs, making sure to turn of the science channel and any science related education that relates to the FIRST experience?

Hey guys, I do not think we can even ask people to stop thinking about their robot, what it will do or could do, how to make it better. Thinking about the excitement of the coming game, changes you could possibly make at the event are the spirit of FIRST.

Read the rule a bit more carefully.

<R14> Prior to the competitions: After the close of the “FIX-IT WINDOW” and prior to the competition, the team must put down their tools, cease fabrication of robot parts, and cease all software development. Take this opportunity to rest, recover from the build season, and relax. Teams may scout other teams, gather and exchange information, develop game-playing strategies, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation for the upcoming competitions. But no construction or fabrication is allowed.

The rule is very specific to fabrication. It does not in any way prohibit fund raising, preparing travel, mentoring, or learning (and I understand you were using the extremes as examples, but for this rule the argument doesn't work). The only thing it does is punctuate what's already been a rule for the past few years; no fabrication of real parts after the ship date. If a team has a practice robot, use the time to evaluate it, figure out what has to be done, where parts should go, etc. Document what should be done, so by the time competition rolls around a minute by minute schedule can be produced outlining exactly what should be done. If a team wants to fabricate parts for the practice robot to find out what the real bot's needs are, there's really nothing to stop that from happening. I would only hope in the spirit of gracious professionalism that none of those parts find their way into the competition, and only raw materials gathered (not modified or machined) during the window are brought in to the real robot.

The emphasis I added to the rule discounts the extreme side of the argument, and proves the contrary- the rule encourages more to be done on the logistical side of the team by diverting team resources from building to planning. The rule says "Teams may scout other teams, collect raw materials, prepare tool kits, plan how to make repairs, etc. in preparation of the upcoming competitions." I'd say that's quite the opposite of not thinking about the robot. Just because the band saws and drill presses are turned off doesn't mean the whole team goes into shutdown mode. It's merely a break from the physical manipulation of metal/wood/electricity/compressed air, a chance to breathe air that doesn't smell like tap magic, and discuss the finer points of the program. Scouting and strategy will play a huge role in this year's competition, and every team knows fund raising never takes a break. Keep that in mind when the Fix-It window rolls around, and remember FIRST is doing it's best to keep all teams on equal grounds.

[Mike Martus]

I did read the rule careful, I was taking an extreme position, almost the what if........

I do however stand behind my point regarding students learning from making an additional robot of any kind to drive and practice repairs. Skills are only learned through practice.

On very often heard complaint is that students do not repair their own robots in the pits. In many cases it is because they do not have or have never been taught the skills to do so.

[Joe Johnson]

From the text, I think it is an open question as to the status of practicing with practice robots.

From what I know of FIRST and the context of the rule, I highly doubt that FIRST ment to disallow practicing with practice robots (discourage, yes, perhaps, but not an outright ban). In any case, if this was their intention, I think they should say so in plain language.

The question has been asked, we can just wait for their input.

Just for the record, long practice sessions (with our practice robot, which we have built over the last 2 years and with our real robot after the regionals when that was allowed) have provided some of the best bonding experiences I have ever had with our students.

Seriously, some of my best memories of FIRST came in the quiet hours waiting for motors to cool or for a part to get re-welded.

I would not like to see that time limited.

Just my 2 cents.

Joe J.

[Raul]

I have to agree with Mike and Joe on this one and disagree with my good friend Andy. Andy, your team can choose to put down everything if you like. I know that our students continue to get inspired as much and learn more during our practice sessions than they do during the incredible rush to finish a robot for shipment.

Just think of it this way - if we do not give the students more opportunities to work with the robot it gives them more opportunities to go watch TV, play video games, watch the NBA, football and get influenced by those rather than get more inspiration from FIRST. I know what you are thinking - but we have a huge team and only so many can work on the other aspects of FIRST (fund raising, etc.).
And yes, I may be wrong, that may also be my selfish view.

Raul

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by Mike Martus

I do however stand behind my point regarding students learning from making an additional robot of any kind to drive and practice repairs. Skills are only learned through practice.

As Jon said, this is more of a mercy rule than anything else, to encourage teams to take a step back from the machines for a moment and ponder what has happened and what's been learned over the previous 6 weeks. My feeling is the rule was designed to prevent work done on actual competition pieces and parts, and it does not apply to any sort of non-FIRST related robotics. If a team is building a robot to do other things non-FIRST for experimentation and learning, I'm pretty sure the FIRST rule wouldn't apply (as the robot itself is not a part of the FIRST program). There's just as much to learn with that sort of robot than a FIRST practice robot.

On very often heard complaint is that students do not repair their own robots in the pits. In many cases it is because they do not have or have never been taught the skills to do so.

Any students actively involved in the building of the robot should have a pretty good idea of how to repair the robot should anything fail. If a student is taught during the 6 weeks how to assemble and disassemble pieces of the robot, they'll have no problems doing it in the pit at competition. I just don't see how an extra 48 hours post-shipping or post-regional would be any more beneficial toward teaching repairs than the 6 weeks of actual build time.