Is the suggested Vision Camera setup ILLEGAL?!

[Mr. Lim]

The suggested camera configuration available from: http://www.ifirobotics.com/docs/cmuc...-software1.zip requires a servo that pans the camera left and right to be directly connected to the camera board. (see GIF attachment)

Is this illegal according to <R53>?

<R53> Custom Circuits may not:
• Interfere with the operation of other robots
• Directly affect any output devices on the robot, such as by providing power directly to a motor, supplying a PWM signal to a speed controller or supplying a control signal to a relay module. (Custom high impedance voltage monitoring or low impedance current monitoring circuitry connected to the robot’s electrical system is acceptable, because the effect on the robot outputs should be inconsequential.)
• Be used for wireless communication, such as sending or receiving a signal to and/or from the alliance station
• Connect to the radio or tether ports on the Robot Controller

-SlimBoJones...

[Kris Verdeyen]

An interesting question - Especially when you consider that the camera itself might be able to cause the servo to move even if the robot is disabled. The servo motor will have power, and I'm pretty confident that a sufficiently clever FIRSTer could hack the camera board (in a legal way, of course) to cause the servo to move (!) when the robot should be disabled.

Has anyone tried this to see if it's possible?

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen

An interesting question - Especially when you consider that the camera itself might be able to cause the servo to move even if the robot is disabled. The servo motor will have power, and I'm pretty confident that a sufficiently clever FIRSTer could hack the camera board (in a legal way, of course) to cause the servo to move (!) when the robot should be disabled.

Has anyone tried this to see if it's possible?

It is possible, and it DOES move when the robot is disabled. No hacking is necessary, as this behaviour was observed using the supplied Frc_CMUCam2_rev-3.zip code package on the IFI website.

To recreate:
1) Disable OI with competition port dongle
2) Power on robot
3) Select desired colour by pressing Trigger on Joystick 2

Watch camera servo move and track your colour while the robot is disabled.

Interestingly enough, this turned out to be "a feature, not a bug" during camera setup. It was nice knowing your robot wasn't going to bolt on you, yet you could see if your camera was calibrated/configured properly by watching it move.

-SlimBoJones...

[Matt Leese]

Except the camera isn't a custom circuit -- it's provided in the kit of parts. Hence it should be legal.

Matt

[Katie Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Matt Leese

Except the camera isn't a custom circuit -- it's provided in the kit of parts. Hence it should be legal.

Matt

Yep.

Follow the flowchart (Sec. 5, Pg. 14):

Is the part a safety hazard or likely to damage robots, the field or interfere with homes or the controls?
|
NO
|
Bumper or non-functional decoration?
|
NO
|
Kit Part?
|
YES
|
Yes, the part may be used.

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Katie Reynolds

Yep.

Follow the flowchart (Sec. 5, Pg. 14):

Is the part a safety hazard or likely to damage robots, the field or interfere with homes or the controls?
|
NO
|
Bumper or non-functional decoration?
|
NO
|
Kit Part?
|
YES
|
Yes, the part may be used.

It's not a question of whether the part itself can be used, but whether it is allowed to be connected in the manner described in the document above.

-SlimBoJones...

[Gal Longin]

I would say according to the rules it's legal but it's useless.
in order to track the vision tetras, your robot should be able to move and when the robot is disabled it can't move.

another way which might work would be to connect the servo outputs from the camera to the analog inputs in the RC and then control the servo through the PWM output, in this case u can also use the signal from the servo to monitor the heading of your camera , which can be quite useful using some "smart" programming.

[Mr. Lim]

Originally Posted by Gal Longin

I would say according to the rules it's legal but it's useless.
in order to track the vision tetras, your robot should be able to move and when the robot is disabled it can't move.

another way which might work would be to connect the servo outputs from the camera to the analog inputs in the RC and then control the servo through the PWM output, in this case u can also use the signal from the servo to monitor the heading of your camera , which can be quite useful using some "smart" programming.

Gal,

I would disagree. It would be useful to know that your robot is successfully tracking the tetra right before the match begins (while it is disabled). In the event that it isn't, you can quickly switch to an autonomous mode that doesn't use the camera, instead of wasting 15 precious seconds.

Additionally, the camera would get its lock BEFORE the match starts instead of having to waste time doing it after it has already started.

Lastly, this is the method IFI is SUGGESTING in the "Start Here" document. This means most teams setting up these cameras for the first time, will be setting them up this way. It'd be errr... interesting... if this way turns out to be illegal.

-SlimBoJones...

[Dave Flowerday]

Hopefully we'll have a definitive answer to this soon:

ID: 1183 Section: 5.3 Status: Unanswered Date Posted: 1/14/2005
Q: May we connect servos to the PWM outputs on the CMUcam to take advantage of the automatic pan and tilt control that it provides?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Wow, this could really be useful.

This could cut autonmous times by 1-2 seconds.

Good Find.

[seanwitte]

The cam data structure in the sample camera code includes the values for the pan and tilt servo commands when in tracking mode. Instead of plugging the servos straight into the camera board you can grab them from the cam struct and use the PWM outputs on the RC to control the servos. Its not really fair to scanning the field before the match starts is it?

[Gal Longin]

Originally Posted by SlimBoJones

Gal,

I would disagree. It would be useful to know that your robot is successfully tracking the tetra right before the match begins (while it is disabled). In the event that it isn't, you can quickly switch to an autonomous mode that doesn't use the camera, instead of wasting 15 precious seconds.

Additionally, the camera would get its lock BEFORE the match starts instead of having to waste time doing it after it has already started.

Lastly, this is the method IFI is SUGGESTING in the "Start Here" document. This means most teams setting up these cameras for the first time, will be setting them up this way. It'd be errr... interesting... if this way turns out to be illegal.

-SlimBoJones...

wow, i have to say i didn't think of this in that way. you're absoloutly right this could really save you a lot of time during the autonomous mode. thanks a lot.

[Jon K.]

Originally Posted by SlimBoJones

Gal,

I would disagree. It would be useful to know that your robot is successfully tracking the tetra right before the match begins (while it is disabled). In the event that it isn't, you can quickly switch to an autonomous mode that doesn't use the camera, instead of wasting 15 precious seconds.
-SlimBoJones...

Except for the fact that you cannot touch your controls and robot after the vision tetras have been placed per rules
<G05> The VISION TETRAS will be placed on the field by field attendants after the ROBOTS have been
positioned. The locations of the VISION TETRAS will be determined by random selection from a set of 8
possible starting locations (as identified on the “2005 Field Lines and Layout” drawing). ROBOTS may not
be repositioned or manipulated in any manner after the VISION TETRAS have been placed on the field.
<G06> No team member may pass the Starting Line in their TEAM ZONE until the conclusion of the
AUTONOMOUS PERIOD. All team members must stay within their alliance’s designated TEAM ZONE
during the match. If a team member passes the Starting Line before the autonomous period ends, except to
save their controls from a violent collision of a robot into the diamond plate, or leaves their TEAM ZONE
during the match, the team will be assessed a 10 point penalty. If a HUMAN PLAYER leaves the HUMAN
PLAYER ZONE at any time during the match for any reason other than personal safety, the team will be
assessed a 10 point penalty. However, if such actions are deemed by the referee to be so serious to have
affected the outcome of the match, the team may be disabled and disqualified.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by seanwitte

Its not really fair to scanning the field before the match starts is it?

As long as FIRST makes it clear that it's allowed (if that's their ruling, of course) then I don't see how it wouldn't be fair... every team would then have the opportunity of doing it, right? It seems like that would make the game better for everyone. Wouldn't it be more exciting if the robots knew exactly where to go as soon as autonomous starts rather than having to scan for them after getting enabled?

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by FIRST Q&A

ID: 1183 Section: 5.3 Status: Answered Date Answered: 1/14/2005
Q: May we connect servos to the PWM outputs on the CMUcam to take advantage of the automatic pan and tilt control that it provides
A: Yes.

We have our answer.