Does <R14> preclude you from practicing after the Fix-it Window

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Since we, team 118, are interpreting "the team must put down their tools" to mean put our tools down after the Fix-it Window (FIW) and until the competition instead of put our tools down after the FIW then pick them right back up to build another robot and because most of you believe that it is perfectly legal, I have submitted it to the Q&A System.

Thanks for the valuable input ... we're probably wrong,
Lucien

WE'RE WRONG!

Q: Does <R14>, particularly "the team must put down their tools", preclude teams from using their tools to build, repair, and/or modify a practice robot between the Fix-it Window and competition? Simply, can teams "practice" after the FIW?

A: Teams can practice after the Fix-It window but anything you work on cannot be brought to the competition if it violates any rules.

Personally, I am very disappointed in this ruling. I believe that FIRST turned into lawyers for a day to come up with this ruling.

When reading these Rules, please use technical common sense (engineering thinking) rather than a lawyer’s interpretation. Try to understand the reasoning behind a rule.

Honestly, I thought when we posted the question to the Q&A system, it was just a formality to verify that practicing was illegal. Now that "the team must put down their tools" does NOT mean that the team has to put down their tools, the question must be asked what "cease all software development" means. Does it mean that we can change variables to make the motors run in the right direction? Does it mean that we can do as much development on our practice robot as we desire as long as we key-punch the code in when we get to our regional? Does it mean that we can't touch a tool ... I mean a keyboard? Yes, we don't think that we can touch a keyboard after the FIW but we were wrong before and are probably wrong again.

Also, I will start a new thread discussing the pros and cons of practicing after the ship date. It WILL be some interesting conversation and look forward to understanding both sides.

Very, very disappointed,
Lucien

[Jack Jones]

Well, here it is, a little over six weeks since the last post on this topic. Could it be that all the confusion about this rule has been cleared up, and I missed the seeing it in the updates? Or, could it be that the rule is so totally bizarre that we’ve decided not to talk about it?

I don’t know about the rest of you, but we spent the week following the fix-it window finishing our practice robot. We’ve spent the time since that practicing and upgrading. Err, at least planning upgrades, to include prototyping.

How they think that the rule encourages us to take a break is beyond me. We would have loved to have taken the two days off after shipping, but instead we had to scramble making & assembling replacement parts for just about everything we suspected had a snowball’s chance of breaking.

The rules state, “…teams may bring SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS and COTS items to the competitions (within the limits specified in Rules <R23> and <R24>).”; but it also states “During the ’FIX-IT WINDOW’ … Teams may manufacture SPARE and REPLACEMENT PARTS for their robot at their home facility. Fabrication of UPGRADE PARTS is not permitted during this period.” So where is it they expect us to come up with those UPGRADE PARTS we’re allowed to bring?

If they intended to level the playing field with this rule, then they have missed completely. It used to be that teams who went to many regionals had greater opportunity to work on their robot than those who only went to one. Now it is that teams who go to many regionals have more fix-it windows that those who don’t.

Finally, the rules state, “following the last Regional Event a team attends (i.e. prior to attending the FIRST Championship): Teams may manufacture SPARE, REPLACEMENT and UPGRADE PARTS for their robot at their home facility (not at the competition site).” Imagine that your team has just won a regional or one of the other three awards that newly qualify them for the Nats. You suddenly realize that, in addition to raising the money and making the arrangements, you have two days to design, fab, build, and perfect all those UPGRADES that others who pre-qualified have had months to plan. How is that fair???

[bhweezer]

What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot. I don't think there would be a problem building a second robot, as long as it doesn't have anything to do with this year competition.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by bhweezer

What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot.

Dean's said it many a time--FIRST isn't necessarily fair. And, for better or for worse, this extends to the realm of practice robots.

The main problem I see with trying to block practice bots is how FIRST could a) write a rule with any amount of teeth, and b) enforcing it. How do you regulate things that a team does that are done outside of the build and competitions? I'm not sure it's possible without somehow blocking a legitimate thing (such as someone that wants to start prototyping for 2006).

If anyone wants to take a crack at writing such a rule, I'd be very interested to see the result.

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by bhweezer

What about the majority of FIRST teams that don't have the funds and materials to build a second robot? It doesn't make it fair for the teams that do to have the extra practice driving and whatnot. I don't think there would be a problem building a second robot, as long as it doesn't have anything to do with this year competition.

When you go out into the work world, what if you don't work for the company that has the most money? What if your company can't afford to do things that other companies can? If I've heard it said once, I've heard it a thousand times, FIRST is trying to prepare you for the real world. Sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're not. FIRST on the other hand, gives every team equal opportunity. Every team can fundraise enough money for an extra robot. If your team doesn't have that kind of money and says it's not fair, then maybe some extra fundraising would put you on a playing field that you feel is more level.

[bhweezer]

We host and facilitate the largest and most profitable student run fundraiser in the southeast. Our corporate funding covers our registration fees and thats about it. All 32 members go to regionals and nationals for free and in most cases GET money to cover food and other necessities. Fund raising isn't necessary for us to build a second robot.

Why can't we use our resources to build a second robot on something NOT related to this years competition? If we want kids to learn more then why not use spare parts from previous years to build the ultimate robot for past competitions.

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by bhweezer

Why can't we use our resources to build a second robot on something NOT related to this years competition? If we want kids to learn more then why not use spare parts from previous years to build the ultimate robot for past competitions.

You are not precluded from building a second robot, either a practice robot that is identical to your competition robot, or one unrelated to your competition robot, and using it for practice after the fix it window. Any ambiguity in the rules has been adequately clarified in the Q+A on the FIRST web site. The restrictions are placed on the parts you can bring and use on your competition robot (those machined during the build period, or during the fix-it window, and limited to 25 pounds), and the means by which you can update the RC code on your competition robot (with your fingers after the pits open).

Some teams neither need nor want any mercy...