Go to Post No, nothing secret unless you include the following: will it work?, can it be driven and will it release the balls. - twolf [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Programming
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2005, 14:57
Phil Paspalas Phil Paspalas is offline
Registered User
FRC #1676 (The Pascack Pioneers)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Montvale, New Jersey
Posts: 26
Phil Paspalas is an unknown quantity at this point
Question Programming Sub-Team Problems

I am the advisor to a new team. I am becoming increasingly concerned with the programming and control sub-team and a lack of ability to make progress. We received the Robovation kit only last week and I sent one of the kids home with it and he was not able to get things going.

Where can I steer my kids for the definitive resource to gain basic control over our team robot. Any ideas/resources would be appreciated!
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2005, 15:25
emersont49 emersont49 is offline
Mentor
#1098
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Fenton, Missouri
Posts: 34
emersont49 is a glorious beacon of lightemersont49 is a glorious beacon of lightemersont49 is a glorious beacon of lightemersont49 is a glorious beacon of lightemersont49 is a glorious beacon of lightemersont49 is a glorious beacon of light
Smile Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Paspalas
I am the advisor to a new team. I am becoming increasingly concerned with the programming and control sub-team and a lack of ability to make progress. We received the Robovation kit only last week and I sent one of the kids home with it and he was not able to get things going.

Where can I steer my kids for the definitive resource to gain basic control over our team robot. Any ideas/resources would be appreciated!

The biggest problem I've seen is knowing where to start. I printed out copies of the guide documents for the RC, OI and the EDU unit. I also copied the docs on the default, user and edu programs. Arranging them in a binder with tabs gave our group a central place for documentation.

Read the docs so you know how things work. That way you can give your group targeted tasks they can complete like:

Install the MPLAB IDE, compiler and IFI loader
Wire the EDU computer as shown in the guide
Connect the EDU computer to a PC and download the default code
Change the default code, compile and download it

It's fairly easy when you figure out where to start.
__________________
Tim Emerson
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2005, 15:39
Mr. Lim Mr. Lim is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mr. Lim
no team
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,125
Mr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond reputeMr. Lim has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Paspalas
I am the advisor to a new team. I am becoming increasingly concerned with the programming and control sub-team and a lack of ability to make progress. We received the Robovation kit only last week and I sent one of the kids home with it and he was not able to get things going.

Where can I steer my kids for the definitive resource to gain basic control over our team robot. Any ideas/resources would be appreciated!
I don't know if there are any nearby veteren teams, but the most efficient way would be to send a few members of your programming sub-team over for an evening, and learn the basics. Most teams will show more than enough GP to mentor you in this manner.

Alternatively, you may be able to talk a nearby team's programming mentor to visit your team for a few hours and do the same.

Team 188 has had members from teams around Toronto drop by for these kind of crash course sessions, and it has also sent mentors and students to other schools who've asked for help. Ask, and I'm willing to bet you'll find another team who'll do the same .

-SlimBoJones...
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2005, 16:04
Ryan M. Ryan M. is offline
Programming User
FRC #1317 (Digital Fusion)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,508
Ryan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud of
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/me...ld2=New+Jersey

Is a complete list of CD members in New Jersey (at leas according to their profile... )
__________________

  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2005, 16:11
Goobergunch Goobergunch is offline
Registered User
FRC #1168 (Malvern Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Paoli, PA
Posts: 246
Goobergunch is a name known to allGoobergunch is a name known to allGoobergunch is a name known to allGoobergunch is a name known to allGoobergunch is a name known to allGoobergunch is a name known to all
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan M.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/me...ld2=New+Jersey

Is a complete list of CD members in New Jersey (at leas according to their profile... )
Of course, some may be inactive. YMMV.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2005, 04:55
Phil Paspalas Phil Paspalas is offline
Registered User
FRC #1676 (The Pascack Pioneers)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Montvale, New Jersey
Posts: 26
Phil Paspalas is an unknown quantity at this point
Wink Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Thanks for your response, but I'm not sure where to find these documents and resources you mention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by emersont49
The biggest problem I've seen is knowing where to start. I printed out copies of the guide documents for the RC, OI and the EDU unit. I also copied the docs on the default, user and edu programs. Arranging them in a binder with tabs gave our group a central place for documentation.

Read the docs so you know how things work. That way you can give your group targeted tasks they can complete like:

Install the MPLAB IDE, compiler and IFI loader
Wire the EDU computer as shown in the guide
Connect the EDU computer to a PC and download the default code
Change the default code, compile and download it

It's fairly easy when you figure out where to start.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2005, 09:33
Mark McLeod's Avatar
Mark McLeod Mark McLeod is offline
Just Itinerant
AKA: Hey dad...Father...MARK
FRC #0358 (Robotic Eagles)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Hauppauge, Long Island, NY
Posts: 8,906
Mark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond reputeMark McLeod has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Paspalas
Thanks for your response, but I'm not sure where to find these documents and resources you mention.
Here's an updated Quick Start white paper. see if this helps any.
Programming Quick Start
  • Beginners need the following to program the FIRST robot:
v FRC (Full-size Robot Controller) RC Default Code
v Microchip MPLAB & C compiler
v IFI_Loader
v A standard serial cable
v A Windows PC with a serial port or USB-to-serial converter

  • MPLAB is the FIRST supplied Windows based development environment (edit, compile, debug) that runs on your desktop computer and is usually provided to each team on a compact disk in the Robovation kit. MPLAB is also free on-line at the Microchip website http://microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName =en019469&part=SW007002 , but the C compiler is not free except via the Robovation CD and is normally only available online as a time-limited trial copy or for purchase. For a limited time the latest compiler is available from a link on http://www.usfirst.org/ (bottom left of the page where it says “Microchip Software downloads.” Manuals for using MPLAB come on the FIRST CD.
  • Check the IFI website periodically for updates to the software that corrects issues and fixes problems.
  • The programming language used is “C” or PIC assembly. Tutorials in C can be found on the web, in your local bookstore or on the FIRST website, e.g.,
v C Programming Resource Library http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/C_help.htm has a great overview of the programming process.

v Learn C Programming - Developed by Carnegie Mellon and the National Robotics Engineering Consortium specifically for FIRST, this interactive website will get your team prepared for the FIRST Robotics Competition. http://www.rec.ri.cmu.edu/education/robot_builder/

v FIRST Robovation - A Primer for Success Learning Modules http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/robovation/primer/index.html
  • Newer laptops no longer come with serial ports. If you have this problem one solution is to use a USB/Serial converter. Various models are available at Radio Shack, CompUSA, or online, however, some models can be temperamental and they generally take longer to download than a built-in serial port (60sec vs 10 sec). Good results have been reported using: Bafo Technologies BF-810 (~$15) and a Radio Shack USB-to-Serial port cable #26-183 ($42).
  • Documentation is your friend. Take the time to at least leaf through each manual, so you have an idea of where information can be found. Most of the basic information beginners require can be found in the IFI documents or MPLAB documents:
    • IFI Programming Reference Guide – basic how to program and download to the RC, hookup switches and sensors and do normal robot operations.
    • IFI RC Default Code Reference Guide – description of how the default code is structured and where users can add their own custom code.
    • MPLAB v6.xx Getting Started – basic how to use MPLAB and set options.
    • MPLAB C18 Users Guide – table of max numbers each variable type will store, compiler options, error messages, detailed descriptions of pragmas and some other advanced topics.
    • MPLAB C18 Libraries – details on timers, interrupts, and various other utility functions available to the programmer.
o More advanced documents are also available, e.g., 18Fxx20 Data Sheet (& Errata)– PIC assembly instruction set and details on EEPROM and other chip specific topics, and several others.
  • Programming limits to the 2004 RC:
    • 30,720 bytes of program space is available to the user, after 2004 IFI code.
    • 1,343 bytes of ram available to the user, after 2004 code overhead.
    • 256 bytes of global variables available within any one MPLAB project file, such as user_routines.c
    • 120 bytes of variables can be declared within any single routine.
o The program and data space your code has used can be checked either by the status line at the bottom of the IFI_Loader window or via the optional .map file that you can set MPLAB to generate for you. Note: the .map file lists % of program space used, but the user will have only 90% available to him or her. The .hex is ASCII and file size is no indication of code size.
Visit the ChiefDelphi Programming forum for discussions on all programming topics, problems, and issues http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums.
__________________
"Rationality is our distinguishing characteristic - it's what sets us apart from the beasts." - Aristotle

Last edited by Mark McLeod : 19-01-2005 at 09:39.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2005, 14:21
Mike Lat Mike Lat is offline
Registered User
#1241
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 8
Mike Lat is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

Keep it simple, if you're giving too complex of a task in first year, they will surely be extremely confused.

Programming is expecially difficult in first year because everyone wants to become the lone cowboy and program everything at once by themselves (it seems difficult at times to co-ordinate with your peers about how to accomplish things).

Stick together, assign functions in partners, stay to minimal variations of code, stay organized, and most of all - keep it simple.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2005, 17:35
MarkVH's Avatar
MarkVH MarkVH is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mark VanHaitsma
FRC #0288 (RoboDawgs)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Grandville
Posts: 30
MarkVH is on a distinguished road
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

I am the student programmer for the RoboDawgs.

Last year I knew nothing about programming but learned by reading the documents in FIRST's c programming resource library.

http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/C_help.htm

These just go over the basics.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 19-01-2005, 21:42
JamesBrown JamesBrown is offline
Back after 4 years off
FRC #5279
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Lynchburg VA
Posts: 1,284
JamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond reputeJamesBrown has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Programming Sub-Team Problems

I fall into the same boat as Mark ^ I also taught my self C recently, however I had a decent base in P Basic.

The three best resources are
1. CBolin's white paper
2. The C resource library Power point on the first site
3. Chief Del Phi, If you as a question within 20 minutes you will likely have multiple responses.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Programming - Getting Started Mark McLeod Programming 80 16-04-2008 23:37
Am I the only person with this job? A. Leese General Forum 55 22-06-2006 20:10
First Year Team Assistance - MOEmentum: FYI Mr MOE General Forum 0 07-01-2005 14:07
**FIRST EMAIL**/Important Information for All Championship Teams! Jeremy Roberts FIRST E-Mail Blast Archive 0 09-04-2004 21:12


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi