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Unread 22-04-2002, 00:31
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Angry tape measures

I am going to be very upset if i see teams putting tape measures on there robot now that they say they are legal. This is a very cheap way to try and win it now. If you had it on your robot before fine, but i think it is totaly out of the spirt of first to add this to your robot now when you had no attention of putting one on your robot to begin with. Our team could easily take off our mini me robot add a tape measure and add other devices that would help us out win.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 01:19
Stephanie Stephanie is offline
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i see why you feel this way, but it is perfectly legal. small parts sells tape measures, and you assemble and mount the whole mechanism at the competiton...it's not like they're prebuilding an arm or mouse, ya know?
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Unread 22-04-2002, 01:34
WakeZero WakeZero is offline
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If I understand some of the rule changes this year, FIRST made it legal to add ANYTHING to your robot during the competitions this year because they disallowed teams from taking their robot home with them after a regional, and reshipping it to their next one. Also, some teams had plans all along to add a tape measure, but then either did not follow through or took it off because of that one team update. If anything, they are the ones that will most likely put them on, because they had the plans for them all along.

Oh, and why would you be upset? Be happy that teams are learning from others... isn't that what FIRST is all about? =)
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:01
sidewinder sidewinder is offline
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thats a crock

Tape measures may be legal, but should be frowned apon by teams. Many of us worked hard to find a way to work in the rules in the 6 weeks. if your bot dosent fit the bill then y copy off others. First is Inspiration and recognition of Technology. What is technological about taping a tape measure to a finely milled machine.

My opinion is that if u didn;t build it then u shouldn;t be allowed to use it, and no one can say they built a tape measure (save the teams that built a tape measure like thing themselves.

If we take the easy way out now then what does it tell the rookies, and what will this lead to in the future, The game is about making new strides not relying on something someone esle made. Small parts may sell it but it is by no means a "building item" Shame on all those who exploit this small oversite in that small parts can;t make a special FIRST catalog for teams with some items removed.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:06
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Re: thats a crock

Quote:
Originally posted by sidewinder
My opinion is that if u didn;t build it then u shouldn;t be allowed to use it, and no one can say they built a tape measure (save the teams that built a tape measure like thing themselves.
Should we ban buying of skyway wheels - after all if they didnt make them why should teams be able to use them? no. Its called being creative - teams have to come up with a way to control the tape measure - that takes some design work. No team can just buy the tape measure, stick it on and have it work - there is definitely more to it than just that.

Tom
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:06
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very well put that is what i was trying to say but i like your answer better
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:08
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my last comment was for sidewinder
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:10
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go ahead and ban skyway wheels, its not being creative to copy EVERYONE ELSE
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Unread 22-04-2002, 22:51
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Re: Re: thats a crock

Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Schindler


Should we ban buying of skyway wheels - after all if they didnt make them why should teams be able to use them? no. Its called being creative - teams have to come up with a way to control the tape measure - that takes some design work. No team can just buy the tape measure, stick it on and have it work - there is definitely more to it than just that.

Tom
Tom read my mind. When teams realized that pnuematic wheels worked great for this years comp, many of them modified thier drive train. I don't call this cheating/illegal/"not in the spirit of FIRST"... I call this smart gameplay. If you build a gearbox that dies in every match and then redesign it (maybe using ideas seen from other teams) to not die, that's smart. They shouldn't be DQ'd or looked down upon because they modified thier original design.

When FIRST made the initial rulings on tape measures, many teams (including mine) were scared away from the idea. Those who kept with tape measures either didn't read the rules, or didn't care enough to be cautious. Now that the rules have been stated clearly, I think anyone who wants to design a tether using a legal tape measure realizes it may be smart gameplay for them.

Like Tom said, you can't just add a tape measure to your robot and tell it to extend. You still have to engineer/program/control the thing.

Please don't "blacklist" teams that make creative, strategic modifications to their robots.... thats not the spirit of FIRST.

...just my 2 cents...

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Unread 22-04-2002, 23:08
sidewinder sidewinder is offline
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Angry

Fixing a faulty drive, yes. that requires thought, time, work, and substancial effort, and substancial creativity (even if u do copy a bit).



Copying a design exactly .................................. creative?



And all teams use tape measures the same way and it is incredibly easy to use with very little code, so don;t fight for it being an "innovation." Ya tape the tape measure to the bot and throw on a keyang with a ruber wheel to push it, and program a joystick button to give it power when u want. Uses, one relay, one joystick (already in use) 4 bolts (maybee) one tape measure, one keyang, one line of code, one rubber wheel.
--------------------------------------------

And for the wheels, I do support their use becasue we are given wheels to begin with and they are hard to machine for rookie teams especially, but if u have the tools theres nothing like a c&ced wheel with timing belt on it.
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Unread 22-04-2002, 23:29
Don Taylor Don Taylor is offline
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Tape Measures

This whole issue of Tape measures, mini-segs, etc has been an unfortunate one. I know that our team considered adding a mini-robot during our original design, but abandoned it because it appeared that almost any design that we could have come up with would be potentially illegal so rather than 'push' the rules we just abandoned the idea. After the FIRST ruling that almost any mini-robot was legal we considered adding a Tape measure for our competition at St. Louis but again decided not to, one reason was that we really didn't have time to design and test a new component at St. Louis and also our robot somehow managed to gain a pound between KSC and St. Louis which put us at the 130 lb. limit (I hope that it doesn't gain another lb between St. Louis and Disney !). We may consider adding one at Disney (if we can lose a pound) but I doubt it, it is just too late in the game for us to start changing strategy.

Don Taylor
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Last edited by Don Taylor : 22-04-2002 at 23:31.
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Unread 23-04-2002, 00:05
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Tape Measures and Design

Our team found that the typical keyang and rubber wheel configuration was too heavy (~ 3.5# with the added relay) for consideration after the first regionals in March.
Since then one of our students designed a new reel that can be used with a Fisher Price Motor. This motor is fixed to the tape measure housing itself and weighs about 1/2 of the "typical" tape measure devive mentioned earlier.
Is the concept new, no, but the product IS. Even with this reduction we have had to engineer weight reducing changes to our machine. It was no small or simple task. So I wouldn't say that I would expect to see a lot of tape measures popping up all over the place, at least not on your heavier/at or near weight machines. Sure there are bound to be a few that get "slapped on", but also remember that they are legal, and if a team can manage to engineer them, and install them then good for them.
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Unread 23-04-2002, 00:11
sidewinder sidewinder is offline
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using the fisher price gearbox too, or just the motor?
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Unread 23-04-2002, 00:30
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Just the motor, and the gear that is attached. The gear is epoxied and set-screwed into the new plastc (nylon) reel. The tape from the tape measure is them attached to the the reel. Then assembly is quickly mounted where ever it seems to best fit the strategy for that round with tie wraps.
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Unread 23-04-2002, 02:32
WakeZero WakeZero is offline
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In respect to the one comment about copying designs exactly: what about tank drive? That one seems a bit USED... Hehe, just kidding. If you want to go on forever about little instances of copy cat, you could go on for hours complaining. The important thing that almost everyone in this conversation is forgetting:

F.I.R.S.T. is FOR INSPIRATION AND RECOGNITION OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY.

There message? To inspire young minds to pursue engineering and science, and change the social caste that winning is all about beating the snot out of your opponents.

How specifically do I relate the above to this topic? If a team adds a tape measure to their robot, yes they are helping themselves, but they are also helping every team they play against or with, because the point total goes up. More important than the competition, they learned from their 'competitors' and quickly made adjustments to their product to be able to hold their own against them. Sort of sounds like a real world company doesn't it? Just a little? =)
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